Personally I think it is going to be the best thing for the UK in the long run, but the best news in my mind was David Cameron resigning.
Potbellieddwarf
Personally I think it is going to be the best thing for the UK in the long run, but the best news in my mind was David Cameron resigning.
Spot on. This was the catalyst for the true sentiment to be exhibited in more countries than just the UK.
Not sure it makes a lot of difference either way. The government will have the same problems to deal with, and all that has happened is we have taken one tool from thier hands. They will have to adapt, and do the same things a different way.
The campaign was very much apples-and-oranges as the economic and soveriegnty areguments were not opposites of the same thing, but almost orthoganal. The reality and post-decision arguements will be the same.
But “Real Politique” - it will all be what it is in the end. And in the absence of a controlled experiment, there can be no absolute conclusion over whether it was right or wrong. Al post-priori argument will be just as much a matter of opinion as the a-priori campaigns.
I think a lot of voters didn't/don't know enough about EU membership, the single market and the costs & benefits of membership.
I think there was a lot of protest voting against Cameron.
I think the media is too focused on people who voted because of a dislike of Eastern Europeans.
I think the US media has been very hypocritical as I can't imagine anyone in the US wanting to be part of a Union of most of the countries in the Americas where a council of un-elected bureaucrats get to make decisions ranging from preventing the deportation of convicted criminals to the maximum wattage of a vacuum cleaner.
I'm concerned that, for the second time in recent history, we are going to have a Prime Minister who was not voted for.
Yeah, England and Wales.
Cornwall (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Yorkshire (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Wales (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Nope.
The only good thing is that it's shaking up the political establishment, dislodged Hameron, killed off Boris, and so on. Problem is the Tory candidates are all terrible horrible people.
Potbellieddwarf
Personally I think it is going to be the best thing for the UK in the long run, but the best news in my mind was David Cameron resigning.
The problem is will his replacement be any better and up to the job ahead?
Something a bit fishy about Theresa May's bid is she was totally invisible during the campaign which is a bit suspicious considering her post is one of the biggest in the government and she should have been as conspicuous as Cameron and Osborne.
I guess Michael Gove on the other hand, nailed his colours to the mast and put himself out there for the side he was fighting for.
Was gutted then, am still gutted now.
Potbellieddwarf
Personally I think it is going to be the best thing for the UK in the long run, but the best news in my mind was David Cameron resigning.
eh we (Scotland) will be leaving the UK we voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU 62% to 38% … our place is in Europe and not the UK
Saor Alba
Speaking strictly from technology viewpoint I'd say it's not been a great week, we've lost, or are going to lose the EU funding that was helping to pay for the roll-out of broadband, we're probably going to have to pay more in roaming charges across the EU, it's going to become more difficult to recruit software engineers, game developers, and all those other people that could live and work hear as easily as we could, and all our technology is going to become more expensive.
In the long run the UK should be better off out of europe, the best possible thing to happen would possibly to scrap the entire single market. Then have 27 independent countries with alot more innovation & competitiveness.
Just because the UK wants out of the EU does'nt mean the UK wants to cease trading. If brussels wanted to play hard ball and seal off the single market it would only hurt the remaining EU countries as the UK would simply purchase goods from non EU countries.
Corky34
Speaking strictly from technology viewpoint I'd say it's not been a great week, we've lost, or are going to lose the EU funding that was helping to pay for the roll-out of broadband, we're probably going to have to pay more in roaming charges across the EU, it's going to become more difficult to recruit software engineers, game developers, and all those other people that could live and work hear as easily as we could, and all our technology is going to become more expensive.
Three have been doing a roaming charge free setup for ages, including America, nothing to do with the EU.
A lot of our developers come from outside the EU, it could make the place more multi-cultural rather than EU biassed.
Interesting times though…
Working as developer in a company with several EU developers and a lot of EU and overseas scientists it's not the best thing for me or my company.
It will likely cost us several million in research grants for future projects such as tumour modelling etc.
Selfishness aside I'm not really convinced it was the best move for the country either, we are not the big industrial manufacturing nation we once were, a lot of our industry is either gone or is in foreign ownership. I think a lot of people just voted out of protest and a lot of older people just voted to take the country back to some rose-tinted mythical Great Britain.
Elated….
Sometimes you have to tear things apart and start again. This in my opinion, is one of those times.
Change is scary… but with change comes opportunity.
My main problem, is that I live in Scotland and have the SNP to contend with.
Only my personal opinion/s here of course.
P**sed off, because people are ignoring the fact that Scotland voted to remain a part of the UK and thus we have to respect the voice of the rest of the UK, regardless of the overall result.
It's all a complete mess we could've done without.
sykobee
Yeah, England and Wales.
Cornwall (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Yorkshire (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Wales (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Nope.
The only good thing is that it's shaking up the political establishment, dislodged Hameron, killed off Boris, and so on. Problem is the Tory candidates are all terrible horrible people.
Totally agree with you.
just dandy, thank you kindly.
Pissed off and think that for the best of the uk, each Londoners vote should be worth more in the future.
I am disappointed with the result. It has certainly shaken up the politicians and the voters too. We are a very resilient nation and have done well for many years. I am sure that the UK (or whatever will be left of it) will find its place in the world and do well, but I am very concerned about the path to that future place. We will see what happens.
KrisWragg
Working as developer in a company with several EU developers and a lot of EU and overseas scientists it's not the best thing for me or my company…
My son came home from work (games) and told me of the abuse his French and German colleagues have received this week. If this keeps up, it may be impossible to keep EU workers in the country however much they are needed.
Godric
eh we (Scotland) will be leaving the UK we voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU 62% to 38% … our place is in Europe and not the UK
Saor Alba
That would save the English tax payer some money bye
I reckon it'll be good for UK, once we've actually left and everything settles
I'm a bit depressed about it all, since it's a step backwards, and also pretty bad for our economy over the next few years. I won't be happy having to spend extra for PC components due to the fall in the value of the pound, nor anything else that will, or has already, gone up. I expect food prices will start to rise too, which can't be a good thing for poorer people. If prices of stuff in general go up too much, people will spend less, so less money going through our economy, which as a net result means less will be gained from taxes, meaning less funding for things government related, like the NHS, which could end up being privatised. I know the EU isn't perfect, and tbh, it needs some work doing to it to get rid of corruption and stupid laws, but despite that, I can't help thinking that we've just shot ourselves in the foot by making bad relations with a huge number of other countries.
I am ecstatic.
This East European mass immigration has been going on for quite a while and has badly affected the quality of our society. Did they really think that this would continue forever ? How long before the twig snaps? And, it snapped it has!
The people have spoken and have shown that they are not to be ignored.
I was surprised that people actually voted leave. Now all I want is for those idealists to get the economic damage over and done with before the uncertainty drags on too long. Even in the best case scenario we're looking at six months and it could be years.
I've asked management to look into relocation options. Flee the sinking ship, like the noble rat.
imo UK is now a mess. its a joke how some people of England didnt take it seriously.
OilSheikh
I am ecstatic.
This East European mass immigration has been going on for quite a while and has badly affected the quality of our society. Did they really think that this would continue forever ? How long before the twig snaps? And, it snapped it has!
The people have spoken and have shown that they are not to be ignored.
I couldn't find the actual impact report from the immigration of Eastern Europeans but the impact wasn't like what you or the tabloids have said; its been extremely positive and if I remember correctly even crime statistics were lower in areas with high migration.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26435000https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration
Deeply embarrassed and ashamed.
I love my European friends but I feel like someone has accused me of being xenophobic in front of them…
I live next to family from Lithuania, lovely people. They get me chocolate for cutting the grass as we share a front garden. I feel like I have to explain myself for goodness sake.
OilSheikh
I am ecstatic.
This East European mass immigration has been going on for quite a while and has badly affected the quality of our society. Did they really think that this would continue forever ? How long before the twig snaps? And, it snapped it has!
The people have spoken and have shown that they are not to be ignored.
By badly, do you mean bad in like a really good way? (the proven economic and social improvement for eg?)
cokker
Deeply embarrassed and ashamed.
I love my European friends but I feel like someone has accused me of being xenophobic in front of them…
I live next to family from Lithuania, lovely people. They get me chocolate for cutting the grass as we share a front garden. I feel like I have to explain myself for goodness sake.
I do see the future as better outside the EU.
As for the above I certainly do want to stop more immigration but in no way do I want to send them all home, likewise I would still welcome immigration to fill skills gaps.
But the current import of low skill workers has lead to a race to the bottom for wages in the unskilled markets, I do have a polish friend who earns more here stacking shelves than he did in TV production back home.
I don't blame them, if I could quit my high skilled job and have a better standard of life in another country flipping burgers I would be gone.
The problem with the freedom of movement in the EU is not all countries are equal which has lead to many leaving the poorer countries and heading for the richer countries (UK included).
As for the racism/hate crime which seems to be up, I am truly embarrassed, it seems the scum of out communities has come out thinking 52% of the people are like them.
With that we do need to tackle the chav culture in this country, which would easier if eastern Europeans stopped doing the jobs they refused to as they would then have to do them or lose there benefits, anyway thats another conversation.
Devastated and embarrassed to be British and in particular English.
I'm fairly safe in terms of my job I would think (as safe as anyone can be!) but I feel for those who aren't so fortunate. I'm squirreling away money as it's a very real possibility I may leave the UK - I don't feel the views of British people are compatible with mine in general. Shame, I've only recently bought my first house and I'm enjoying life here in general.
On the brightside I'm likely to be eligible for Irish citizenship and I'm seriously considering taking that up.
How do I feel?Ashamed, angry, disheartened and lighter of pocket
Ashamed because - like many of my fellow Scotland-dwellers - I voted to stay. Like Eddie Izzard says, it's not the British way to run and hide … instead we stay and sort the darned thing out. (As, I believe from comments I've read, many of the Germans assumed we would). Further shame because I end up having to agree with the darned SNP.
Angry because it seems that (
horrible generalisation coming) quite a few of the Leave folks are now dismayed because it turns out that Goove, Johnny boy and Fabbage had … how do I put it … been highly economical with the truth. Particularly in the “yes, we'll control immigration and give the NHS oodles of money” … “ah actually, we can't and we won't”.
Disheartened because we've rabbitted away rather than standing and fighting (as we should have goldarnit) and a number of companies (my current employer included) are now reconsidering investment in the UK because putting it in an EU country is financially better sense.
Lighter of pocket because those cretins have managed to tank the GBP just before I go on holiday -
way to go guys! :wallbash:
The
only upside for me is that it makes those reprobates in UKIP hopefully out of a job now… but that's small consolation.
Interesting comment piece
here, so much so that Miguel de Icaza retweeted it.
interesting to see earlier - because the pound has dropped 1 company ceo said they were now on for a record year as export orders had increased!
HalloweenJack
interesting to see earlier - because the pound has dropped 1 company ceo said they were now on for a record year as export orders had increased!
Works great, so long as you don't need to import anything to make the thing that you're selling.
Glad I am on the other side of the globe right now. The strengthened yen will also benefits me when I make a short trip to the UK next month (no strong desire of staying longer than I need to right now).
Yet disappointed by more things that I can be bothered to describe at this point.
The “hope” that leave voters are trying to sell is also rather hard to buy after finding out that the those leading the leave campaign had no plan to make things work.
Bit like driving down an icy, rocky, narrow mountain road (i.e lots of immediate dangers and uncertainties), while blindfolded (no plan), hoping everything will work out for the best.
HalloweenJack
interesting to see earlier - because the pound has dropped 1 company ceo said they were now on for a record year as export orders had increased!
I heard that a single arbitrage fund made £221M on the night of the referendum, trading the £.
Definitely going to be some winners out of this.
I'm ashamed to have heritage from this sorry island, and glad to be able to identify as African having grown up on the continent.
1 for nationalistic fervor - 0 for cooperation (at least in Europe).
I need some work experience (Civil Engineering student) and I'm now considering using the family I have back home to live with while I get some site based work experience. I'm also seriously considering whether living in the Northern Hemisphere is a good idea.
Lastly I'm glad I didn't waste any money on becoming a British citizen… who knows what good that is going to be in the future now.
Personally I am still very disappointed with our population, and am still embarrassed to be “British” if this is what it means. We're already in more of a mess politically, and I can only see things getting worse when the “real” impact of Brexit is felt over the next 10 years. It's almost unbelievable that 51.9% of the population that voted could stiff the rest of us this much.
I'm sure we'll be fine in the long run, but we would have been just as fine (if not better) if we had not stuck a big two fingers up to the rest of Europe and the rest of the government. I have a fair amount of respect for Theresa May (who is all but certain to be our next PM now), but I don't think she'll be any better than Cameron tbh.
I'll stop typing now before I go on a rant.
Honestly it really does depend on where you live.
I live near areas with high immigration and I've seen local towns turn into no go areas at certain times of the day because of the way some of them act so saying foreign migration has been positive isn't completely true. There's also been a sharp increase in murders which were very rare and pretty much every time one is mentioned in the paper it's linked to a ‘foreign name’ from the EU.
Now I'm not saying they're all like this because I've got people from the EU who live near me who are lovely people and work a lot harder (they've said straight they work hard to afford everything etc) than the ‘British’ people on the same estate who pretty much all claim benefits and live a life of luxury.
If you live in major cities, especially London, multi cultural life is a different ball game and is all part of day to day life but if you go outside of this it just doesn't work as well because of the way non city communities work, something the government (and city dwellers) seems to forget
As to trade, personally I can't see it being a major issue whether we're in or out in the long term because we buy more from the EU than we sell to them (actually decreasing) so from a trade perspective it will hurt the EU just as much to not ‘keep free trade’. Not to mention we can now trade anywhere without EU restrictions etc and set our own trade rates, from what I've seen we've already had several countries wanting to discuss trade deals with the UK since the Brexit announcement. Don't forget places like India and China are the growing economies and they LOVE British stuff supposedly, you very rarely hear them say that about the rest of the EU.
If the Government is any good they'll ensure good deals for major international companies employing foreign workers like MS/Google etc. But we do need to be able to set limits on how many come into this country, we can't maintain the current rate of expansion on the population, it's that simple. Ideally I'd like to see an Australian system employed where you can't come to work without already having a job lined up etc.
If I'm being completely honest I think the biggest problem we've got now is the government itself and the bloke in charge of the Bank of England. The ‘leave’ Conservatives (it really should be a leave person become PM now) are all stabbing each other in the back, Labour have a complete idiot for a leader who just doesn't understand he's a laughing stock and then we've got the Scottish PM trying to get her own little country again…
Now the bloke in charge (not even British) of the Bank of England is just not saying anything positive about the pound despite the shares going back up to close to what they were within a week so the value of the pound stays low.
Unhappy and ashamed. Leaving is clearly economically illiterate. The Brexit sales pitch of access to the single market but no free movement of labour has always been bull#### and will not be achieved. The pledge for extra money for the NHS has already been abandoned. Our political system is in disarray and we have no plan for our future. Many Europeans are demonstrably hostile towards us. Hate crime has rocketed.
We are a resilient country but we have just shot ourselves in the collective foot. We are running a huge budget defecit, have very poor labour productivity numbers which has been worsening over time, have undermined some core industries (i.e. banking and insurance). Our international power isn't anything like what it was.
Brexit is the wrong answer to a genuine set of problems which we should be tackling instead of spending the next 5 years sorting out this mess.
xyt
The pledge for extra money for the NHS has already been abandoned.
I was under no illusion that it was sold as a possability, of course as the leave campaign don't run the country all they could put forward are the possabilities which would be open to the government.
As for the ‘NHS pledge", if I remember correctly the bus said: We send the EU £350million a week, let’s fund our NHS instead.
Yet again, its saying we could spend the money on the NHS, not we will. Its down to the government to decide once were out.
Slightly prouder of my British origins and hopeful for the future for my extended family who still live there.
crossy
How do I feel?
Ashamed, angry, disheartened and lighter of pocket
Ashamed because - like many of my fellow Scotland-dwellers - I voted to stay. Like Eddie Izzard says, it's not the British way to run and hide … instead we stay and sort the darned thing out. (As, I believe from comments I've read, many of the Germans assumed we would). Further shame because I end up having to agree with the darned SNP.
Angry because it seems that (horrible generalisation coming) quite a few of the Leave folks are now dismayed because it turns out that Goove, Johnny boy and Fabbage had … how do I put it … been highly economical with the truth. Particularly in the “yes, we'll control immigration and give the NHS oodles of money” … “ah actually, we can't and we won't”.
Disheartened because we've rabbitted away rather than standing and fighting (as we should have goldarnit) and a number of companies (my current employer included) are now reconsidering investment in the UK because putting it in an EU country is financially better sense.
Lighter of pocket because those cretins have managed to tank the GBP just before I go on holiday - way to go guys! :wallbash:
The only upside for me is that it makes those reprobates in UKIP hopefully out of a job now… but that's small consolation.
Interesting comment piece here, so much so that Miguel de Icaza retweeted it.
Have to pipe up, UKIP out of a job! Sorry can't be more wrong. Farage has got check and mate! He got to tell EU to go jump, gets all the applause for getting UK out. Now UKIP lay waiting for for a battle they cannot loose, either free movement off the table - Farage takes credit, I did it. Or negotiation are a compromise (most likely)… Farage says I got us out and Tories mucked it all up vote UKIP in next election if not happy. UKIP \ Farage cannot loose English votes now. He causes carnage and gets EU backs up but has nothing to do with negotiations which he will claim victory for or criticise for not getting rid of free movement. UKIP just laying in wait for which battle cry will come for next election, knowing the right wing of politics is more active and mobilised than ever.
How do I feel?
Hell, I'm Australian. Pretty much just waiting to see what happens.
Ignorance won. I am ashamed to be part of Britain.
I'm interested to see how it goes and whether in the long run we'll be better off. Also a bit disappointed that I don't think voters on both sides made as informed decisions as they should've, and also due to some opinions of others because things didn't go their way (such as bringing in the age argument for having the right to vote). I'm also a bit worried that the country will remain divided instead of coming together.
FRISH
I'm interested to see how it goes and whether in the long run we'll be better off. Also a bit disappointed that I don't think voters on both sides made as informed decisions as they should've, and also due to some opinions of others because things didn't go their way (such as bringing in the age argument for having the right to vote). I'm also a bit worried that the country will remain divided instead of coming together.
Well IMHO I think the core voters on either side had made their mind up (maybe for years) to what they think of the EU but interesting to know:- were the undecided voters influenced by the debates on tv or newspapers.
At work we have had at least 6 incidents this week of being told to f*** off back to whatever cave we came from by people on the street. Its so bad that we won't leave the office alone - we go in groups and our company is looking at closing down or relocating :).
Surprised that Leave had the majority; and even more surprised that virtually no-one made a plan on what to do if it did win! The Remain campaign was incompetent; the Leave campaign was criminal.
Astounded by the political implosion that is going on at the moment.
Disappointed in the EU's reaction as a whole in not recognising this feeling is underlying throughout several countries and will look to try to quash it rather than address the issues.
However, it has only been a week, which is nothing really. The immediate panic seems to have subsided, but the extra couple of months of uncertainty may or may not help as the dust settles. The next impact will be when a new PM has been chosen, and hopefully by then, they will have at least some notion of what their plan is. Personally, I hope for some sort of EEA agreement (Single market with free movement of people) akin to Norway. It won't be what a lot of the Leavers wanted (would be some though), but I think you would gain more Remain votes than you would lose Leave votes (if that makes sense). That was the problem with the Referendum as a whole, we could only vote to leave the EU, but it wasn't possible (or indeed practical I guess) to get the how far removed people wanted to be. It would be interesting to have seen if an option for the EEA instead and if that would have been a good enough comprimise for everyone.
LSG501
Honestly it really does depend on where you live.
I live near areas with high immigration and I've seen local towns turn into no go areas at certain times of the day because of the way some of them act so saying foreign migration has been positive isn't completely true. There's also been a sharp increase in murders which were very rare and pretty much every time one is mentioned in the paper it's linked to a ‘foreign name’ from the EU.
Now I'm not saying they're all like this because I've got people from the EU who live near me who are lovely people and work a lot harder (they've said straight they work hard to afford everything etc) than the ‘British’ people on the same estate who pretty much all claim benefits and live a life of luxury.
If you live in major cities, especially London, multi cultural life is a different ball game and is all part of day to day life but if you go outside of this it just doesn't work as well because of the way non city communities work, something the government (and city dwellers) seems to forget
As to trade, personally I can't see it being a major issue whether we're in or out in the long term because we buy more from the EU than we sell to them (actually decreasing) so from a trade perspective it will hurt the EU just as much to not ‘keep free trade’. Not to mention we can now trade anywhere without EU restrictions etc and set our own trade rates, from what I've seen we've already had several countries wanting to discuss trade deals with the UK since the Brexit announcement. Don't forget places like India and China are the growing economies and they LOVE British stuff supposedly, you very rarely hear them say that about the rest of the EU.
If the Government is any good they'll ensure good deals for major international companies employing foreign workers like MS/Google etc. But we do need to be able to set limits on how many come into this country, we can't maintain the current rate of expansion on the population, it's that simple. Ideally I'd like to see an Australian system employed where you can't come to work without already having a job lined up etc.
If I'm being completely honest I think the biggest problem we've got now is the government itself and the bloke in charge of the Bank of England. The ‘leave’ Conservatives (it really should be a leave person become PM now) are all stabbing each other in the back, Labour have a complete idiot for a leader who just doesn't understand he's a laughing stock and then we've got the Scottish PM trying to get her own little country again…
Now the bloke in charge (not even British) of the Bank of England is just not saying anything positive about the pound despite the shares going back up to close to what they were within a week so the value of the pound stays low.
you do realise that the non eu migration, is higher than the eu migration is?
so if you want to stop some of it, start there. But no politician wants to handle it, same goes for the negotiations, none of them has the balls.
Why there has not been made any runways for the airports around London. None of the parties has an interest nor knowledge in the industrial production, and that area will suffer! looks at the muddle of the steel industry. lets see if there is much left of the car production once they have to renew the lines.
Percy1983
As for the ‘NHS pledge", if I remember correctly the bus said: We send the EU £350million a week, let’s fund our NHS instead.
Yet again, its saying we could spend the money on the NHS, not we will. Its down to the government to decide once were out.
This poster behind Boris says otherwise…
Spud1
…. It's almost unbelievable that 51.9% of the population that voted could stiff the rest of us this much.
….
As opposed to the 48.1% of the population stiffing the rest of us that much by staying, I suppose?
Corky34
This poster behind Boris says otherwise…
Do I need to explain the difference between the terms ‘Let’s' and ‘We Will’?
I admit its a bit ambiguous and many may have took things as promises/pledges, but as an educated person I knew they didn't have the power to change anything and only the power to change the options in front of the current and future governments.
I accept the outcome - but I don't agree with it:
The referendum was badly organised and ill-informed. People voted mostly without all the full factual information.
Compare this with the Scottish independence referendum where they had debated for a few YEARS before doing it, there was plenty of information, the independence campaign had a fully detailed plan on how it would happen that was open to public so that everyone could discuss and this went on for a very long time before the actual vote itself.
In this case - we had 4 months from the announcement of the vote to the actual vote and barely any details. No plans for a Brexit. - thie blog describe the difference better really although is a bit of a read -
https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c#.6fwfnivbi2ndly - the lies and misleading statements from both Leave and Remain camp was both unhelpful and should have not been allowed. Full stop.
For example:
Leave campaign could be summed up as:
1) No EU fees! (it goes to NHS and it's £350 million a week - both of which aren't true)
2) No EU laws! (I'm yet to hear how this is a good thing to be honest. It's not perfect but it works mostly)
3) Complete border control! (let's hide the fact that we have 100% border control for non-EU immigration and this always have been higher than EU immigration)
4) Take back control! (I haven't a clue what this is supposed to mean?)
After a Brexit - it appears that they all still want access to the single market of EU. This mean:
1) EU fees
2) EU laws
3) Free movement of labour (Norway/Swiss model means Schengen area, no passport control)
4) Completely give up control. No votes, no veto. All EU laws related to the single market will be discussed and passed without any UK input (which we have as EU member with plenty of control)
So what exactly did the Leave was planning really??
Plus given that the Leave campaign was founded on playing up people's fear but aren't actually going to carry out any of them apart from the simple idea of “leave EU” and that's it - it meant it have misled many voters.
I'm not saying all Leave voters are “thick” and haven't a clue what they are voting for. Plenty know but at the same time it's fair to say that there are plenty that voted because they like the idea of “take back £350 million from EU and spend it on NHS instead!”.
The Remain campaign had their own silly quotes such as one of the MP (was it Cameron?) quipping about World War 3. I mean…come on, that's silly.
The EU issue is absolutely massive and there are so much about it that most people doesn't really know much about or is flat out wrong about and we're asking to vote with limited information within limited timescale?
No - I consider that the Government have failed in its duty to ensure there is proper factual information for both sides of the debate and failed to ensure that it is as truthfully as possible and that there should have been a discussion on what is the actual plan for a Brexit etc etc so people know what to expect after a Brexit rather than a “I don't know” which is just…stupid.
Now we face the real possibility of the breakup of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland with Scotland breaking away. This also increase the small possibility of Northern Ireland breaking away too or a flare up of the Troubles. And then there's Gibraltar too which might break away too.
Some mentioned “Good, save english taxpayers money” for Scotland breaking away, but we have to remember that the remaining North Sea oil fields etc are all in Scottish waters - that's a huge source of revenue. We'll also have to pay billions to take out Trident from Scotland and relocate it.
Either way - this will reduce the GDP of what's left of UK a lot and this does have an impact including the military spending (smaller navy, air force, army the outcome). I'm sure Falkland Island is comfortable right now at the moment with that possible future! I'm sure people didn't vote for break up of UK into perhaps just England and Wales left over at the end.
This is a colossal cock-up by the Tories, not the population of UK.
(PS it's also interesting that for those who voted Leave, who tell the Remains to just accept the result and move on - I should point out that if UK truly was a democracy, then you should bear in mind that democracy is the freedom to change your mind. So far I have yet to hear of a real firm commitment to invoking the Article 50 of Lisbon Agreement but instead it is just being delayed back and back. First it was immediately, then to October and now it's end of the year. What's the bet it will get pushed back again because the cost is probably too high. And the referendum isn't legally binding - the Government could just ignore it or use it as advisory to push for reforms in EU to resolve some of the problems (Parliament is sovereign after all) even though it would be very bad politically, it can be done (and does happens in other democracies).
PS democracy also mean that anyone could form a RTEU (Return to EU) party similar to UKIP after a Brexit and we'll get a “pro-EU” version of Nigel Farage running this campaigning to take UK back into EU etc. That's democracy in action really and with near 50% of UK supporting that…
Still pretty sad about it, especially if Scotland leaves and thereby history loses Britain.
The elites we supposedly voted against, many of them the very definition of “unelected foreigners telling our government what to do”, will be giddy with excitement about the coming carve-up of our resources so we've got to be ready to stop this. Anyone with a lot of money knows the way the wind was blowing: our electorate does not want the NHS sold off, it does not think privatised prisons are a good idea, it does not think deregulation of banks is a good idea, millions of us value the BBC (and I acknowledge that there are also millions who say they don't, but still…) and people of all political stripes had even been mooting the idea of renationalising the rail networks. They will not waste this opportunity to smash all of that if they can. After what we've just seen, take nothing for granted.
Percy1983
Do I need to explain the difference between the terms ‘Let’s' and ‘We Will’?
I admit its a bit ambiguous and many may have took things as promises/pledges, but as an educated person I knew they didn't have the power to change anything and only the power to change the options in front of the current and future governments.
It's not ambiguous, Percy. Come on.
We had more of this kind of definitive shenanigans last week with Gove's PM bid, that he would spend “£100m more on the NHS”. £100m more than *what*, he declined to say.
Percy1983
Do I need to explain the difference between the terms ‘Let’s' and ‘We Will’?
I admit its a bit ambiguous and many may have took things as promises/pledges, but as an educated person I knew they didn't have the power to change anything and only the power to change the options in front of the current and future governments.
No, but you do need to understand that implying you'll do a thing, i.e. being responsible for putting that thought into people's heads, and then afterwards falling back on your cleverly worded message to say ‘we didn’t actually
say that, actually, if you look at my words' is utterly cowardly and disreputable.
Percy1983
Do I need to explain the difference between the terms ‘Let’s' and ‘We Will’?
Not from a grammatical or legal sense no you don't, however ask yourself this, if that was an nonpolitical advertisement do you think the Advertising Standards Authority would allow it?
Or do you think they'd investigate it for being misleading, something they don't have the power to do as political advertising doesn’t fall within their remit.
One thing I've come to realise, is that there is a need for regulation in political campaigns. Those found guilty of making misleading, or utterly impossible pledges need to be taken to court, fined, and we can give that money to the NHS.
hellig
you do realise that the non eu migration, is higher than the eu migration is?
Thats not what the UK is reporting on it's migration statistics site.
Also we do have set limits for a lot of countries outside of the EU so there are restrictions in places, whether they are high enough is another matter.
Otherhand
It's not ambiguous, Percy. Come on.
We had more of this kind of definitive shenanigans last week with Gove's PM bid, that he would spend “£100m more on the NHS”. £100m more than *what*, he declined to say.
wazzickle
No, but you do need to understand that implying you'll do a thing, i.e. being responsible for putting that thought into people's heads, and then afterwards falling back on your cleverly worded message to say ‘we didn’t actually say that, actually, if you look at my words' is utterly cowardly and disreputable.
I don't see how else they could have argued apart from presenting possibilities.
What your saying is they could only argue things they could do, but as Boris/Farage are not the government they have to power to implement nothing.
I suppose my point is I voted based on possibilities and not a definitive what will be, I see nothing wrong talking about such possibilities while promoting the cause for leaving.
Except £350M was never a possibility, because that figure was not the amount we sent to the EU, and they knew it.
Ok take rounding out it was a bit shorter, I accept money does come back but I can put this another way.
You want to be a member of my club, every £50 you each I take £20 off you and give you £10 back and tell you what your allowed to spend it on, so you have £30 with a controlled £10, out of my club you have a straight £50 to spend how you like.
You want to join?
What gets me is why use a figure that was definitely misleading. If they had put £100m a week net loss (I assume that is closer to the actual figure ignoring the secondary benefits), then it would have been less easy to dismiss and would have still looked “good” on posters.
LSG501
Thats not what the UK is reporting on it's migration statistics site.
What UK migration statistics site says that? The
ONS whose the officially recognised statistics authority for the UK government estimates immigration for EU citizens was 270,000 at the end of May 2016 while immigration of non-EU citizens was 277,000. (Net migration of EU citizens was estimated to be 184,000 while non-EU net migration was 188,000)
Percy1983
You want to join?
Depends what other benefits this club of yours offers, are you going to lay on free tea and biscuits. ;)
Agreed with Gerrard.
Percy1983
You want to join?
Since we are talking about money here, we have to look at the whole economic argument of being in the EU (or at the very least the single market).
Membership has been estimated to worth 31bn to 92bn a year to the UK. Even taking the lower estimate of 31bn, it's still close to 600m per weak. Way more than the 350M week in membership fee even without rebate.
And even if we assume that the 31bn figure is still hugely inflated (though I've yet to see anyone disputing it), halving it would -still- provide parity after rebate on the 350M.
Now sure, it is not the only price we pay for access to the single market. Leavers will quickly point at the freedom of movements. Yet European migrants are overall net contributors, so I don't buy it either.
The answer to your own scenario is “it depends”. But as far as the UK and the EU is concerned, the economic argument against is weak.
TooNice
Yet European migrants are overall net contributors, so I don't buy it either.
Yes they are, I am not going to argue with that, but what happens when they all get old? the strain on the country is massive, how do we pay for it? more immigration to cover it…
The problem is we keep doing this making each generation a lot bigger than the last to pay for the previous, its basically a pyramid scheme, and all know how they go when the base finally gets to big.
In short as a country we have been living beyond our means for a long time and we keep kicking the can down the road, something has to change.
I think the real question is “How will you feel after Article 50 is triggered, if it ever is?” ;)
crossy
Interesting comment piece here, so much so that Miguel de Icaza retweeted it.
This whole thing is enough of a car crash that we have a #brexit channel on internal company chat. Funnily enough, Miguel isn't in there.
directhex
This whole thing is enough of a car crash that we have a #brexit channel on internal company chat. Funnily enough, Miguel isn't in there.
Hah, so do we!
People were not happy in my office.
I didnt read through all the posts, and thus apologise if this has been posted:
http://thebrexitplan.com/Once Article 50 gets invoked, thats when we should actually get worried. If, like me you're a first time buyer this limbo period couldnt be more frustrating.
Much as I enjoy watching the Brexiteers squirming on the hooks if their own petards (I also love mashups)
It's not getting us anywhere is it ? They cannot be swayed because their vote wasn't based on logic. It was mostly on lies, misapprehension and class. The country is measurably poorer, racisism is emboldened, the politicians are eating each other, and the schism in society is enlarged.
Yes. I put this at the feet of Cameron and Johnson. Their Etonian squabbles have ruined this country.
Phage
Much as I enjoy watching the Brexiteers squirming on the hooks if their own petards (I also love mashups)
It's not getting us anywhere is it ? They cannot be swayed because their vote wasn't based on logic. It was mostly on lies, misapprehension and class. The country is measurably poorer, racisism is emboldened, the politicians are eating each other, and the schism in society is enlarged.
Yes. I put this at the feet of Cameron and Johnson. Their Etonian squabbles have ruined this country.
Well there have been a few brexiteers who have changed tack after the result, mostly because of the realization that the leave campaign was built on lies, but a few brexiteers I know have been a little less entrenched afterwards, so there's still some cause to argue the case, though I will concede that a lot of it is merely venting anger.
Having said that, there are a lot of remainers who are just shrugging their shoulders and accepting the result, which I don't think is the right attitude, and I believe a good number of them can be convinced, leading to a more resolved, united front against the rising cases of racism and xenophobia, not to mention a good push to convince politicians not to push the big red button.
Phage
Much as I enjoy watching the Brexiteers squirming on the hooks if their own petards (I also love mashups)
It's not getting us anywhere is it ? They cannot be swayed because their vote wasn't based on logic. It was mostly on lies, misapprehension and class. The country is measurably poorer, racisism is emboldened, the politicians are eating each other, and the schism in society is enlarged.
Yes. I put this at the feet of Cameron and Johnson. Their Etonian squabbles have ruined this country.
But if the vote had gone the other way, by a similar margin, one might have heard similar claims by the leavers “They only voted to remain because they didn't understand the issues and were scared of change, fuelled by some of the outrageous claims by the reamsin team… Etc etc”
Neither position is true and demeans those on both sides who saw through the hyperbole and rhetoric and made a considered judgement. And don't forget that the turnout was over 75%, far higher than for a general election.
Except that it didn't and Boris and Gove has been exposed as charlatans. The issues were covered by experts in EU Law, by the ONS, by the BoE, by the IMF.
The phrase that people are tired of experts tells you all you need to know.
The idea that neither was true, is patently incorrect. Yes there was hyperbole, yes DC is a horrible person. But the ‘experts’ so denigrated by the Brexiteers have been proved right so far, and the Leave campaign has no Plan, and no ideas of what to do next whilst the SNP and Sinn fein consider how to break up the country.
The turnout is great, but doesn't reflect the campaign issues.
Phage
Quite right. I'm hoping for a general election.
I don't think there would be any point; it would drag out the uncertainty and no doubt lead to a hung government. Reason being, if the Tories said they would not respect the outcome, a lot of people would vote UKIP; unlikely enough to get enough for a win but enough to stop anyone else. Labour in its current form have little chance, and no idea where the Lib Dems are…
Very unhappy. I've even considered relocating which is something I've never even considered in the past. The EU wasn't perfect but neither is the UK (How people can complain about unelected bureaucrats in the EU when we still have the house of lords I do not know). I'm also 10% poorer…
peterb
But if the vote had gone the other way, by a similar margin, one might have heard similar claims by the leavers “They only voted to remain because they didn't understand the issues and were scared of change, fuelled by some of the outrageous claims by the reamsin team… Etc etc”
Neither position is true and demeans those on both sides who saw through the hyperbole and rhetoric and made a considered judgement. And don't forget that the turnout was over 75%, far higher than for a general election.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a ‘52-48 result would be unfinished business’
Now,we have the same people totally changing position.
Phage
Except that it didn't and Boris and Gove has been exposed as charlatans. The issues were covered by experts in EU Law, by the ONS, by the BoE, by the IMF.
The phrase that people are tired of experts tells you all you need to know.
The idea that neither was true, is patently incorrect. Yes there was hyperbole, yes DC is a horrible person. But the ‘experts’ so denigrated by the Brexiteers have been proved right so far, and the Leave campaign has no Plan, and no ideas of what to do next whilst the SNP and Sinn fein consider how to break up the country.
The turnout is great, but doesn't reflect the campaign issues.
Don't worry,people should start making excuses for all the major Leave campaign people quietly moving away from some of the major campaign promises. But,but Project Fear,but,but Project Remain is to blame..
LMAO.
Phage
Quite right. I'm hoping for a general election.
It's just that there is little pint in arguing the case with committed Brexiteers. They just get angry. Heh I've seen accusations that it's a Zionist plot !
It's also a zionist plot to try to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn, surprisingly.
peterb
Neither position is true and demeans those on both sides who saw through the hyperbole and rhetoric and made a considered judgement. And don't forget that the turnout was over 75%, far higher than for a general election.
Sigh… Yes, neither position is true, but in the real world, truth is not binary, and it's fairly clear that the leave campaign lied much harder and bigger.
ITT you've already spouted some of the rhetoric from the leave campaign that has been shown to be a lie (e.g. eu commission president not elected), so no, I don't think you have seen through the hyperbole and made a considered judgement.
wazzickle
Sigh… Yes, neither position is true, but in the real world, truth is not binary, and it's fairly clear that the leave campaign lied much harder and bigger.
ITT you've already spouted some of the rhetoric from the leave campaign that has been shown to be a lie (e.g. eu commission president not elected), so no, I don't think you have seen through the hyperbole and made a considered judgement.
Sorry, I must have been away when I was invited to vote for the president of the Commision. Can you remind who the candidates were?
peterb
Sorry, I must have been away when I was invited to vote for the president of the Commision. Can you remind who the candidates were?
Well,last time I checked the general electorate did not vote for who the prime minister was,that was done by the party itself who fight among themselves to find a suitable candidate! ;) Likewise we vote for MPs,not for the PM position and if one party has enough votes they will lead the country.
If they did not have enough votes they form a coalition - so did we have a vote on who the Tories should make a coalition with??
So given the fact that we don't have 100% turnouts at general elections,don't have one party winning 100% of that vote and the fact we don't even have proportional representation - that means most of our parties and by extension our prime ministers were not elected by even 50% of the electorate,let alone the general population.
Considering that we even tried to reform the election system to be more democractic - funny how most did not think it was that important enough to be reformed. Showed you all the proponents of democracy could not be bothered even a few years ago! ;)
Plus,also we had John Major and Gordon Brown as unelected prime ministers,and probably another one soon if no general election is called immediately,or the fact that the House of Lords is not elected and also the fact we are a constitutional monarchy not a republic like France.
I am sure there will be calles for us to become a Republic,right?? ;)
But,but democracy.
When is the last time we had a referendum on a major purchase like countries such as Switzerland?? They cancelled a fighter order after the public said no. Might have been useful for MRA4 and saving us nearly £4 billion - could have spent it on the NHS instead! ;)
You shouldn't leave.It's a big blow for the scientific community.
The potential Prime Minister, the leaders of the various political parties, are know to the electorate before the election. Yes there are occasions when a PM changes before the end of the Parliamentary term, but it is certain that an election will take place with the option of voting them out or to remain.
The EU commission and president are chosen in exactly the same manner that our ministers and PM are chosen - the representatives we democratically elect choose, democratically, amongst themselves, who they want to do the job. The fact that you were not aware of what was going on and when is some combination of your fault and that of our media.
Percy1983
Yes they are, I am not going to argue with that, but what happens when they all get old? the strain on the country is massive, how do we pay for it? more immigration to cover it…
Funnily enough that's the main reason EU migrants contribute more to the economy than non-EU migrants, being closer EU migrants tend to go back home when it comes to retirement, i guess it has something to do with it being closer and being easier to maintain ties to family and friends.
peterb
Sorry, I must have been away when I was invited to vote for the president of the Commision. Can you remind who the candidates were?
While you didn't get to elect the president of the Commission you did vote in the 2014 European elections (at least i assume you voted in those) and the party with the most elected members got to choose and propose who they thought best suited for the role, that proposition was then elected via a qualified majority vote from the rest of parliament, next chance we get to change the president of the Commission will be in 2019.
Personally i think that's a much better way than how we choose the president of our equivalent body, I'm guessing most people couldn't name the head of our executive body, it's
this guy BTW, and i don't remember being given any say in his appointment.
Oh man that's a bad little stint.
He stayed in this position until 2003, when he left the civil service in the wake of the Hutton Inquiry where it emerged that Heywood claimed to have never minuted meetings in the Prime Ministerial offices about David Kelly, a job he was required to do. He emerged to become the managing director of the UK Investment Banking Division at Morgan Stanley where he became embroiled in the Southern Cross Healthcare scandal that almost saw 30,000 elderly people being made homeless.
outwar6010
Pissed off and think that for the best of the uk, each Londoners vote should be worth more in the future.
Absolutely. We are the wealth creators. The regions who voted out would have reduced wealth if the handouts from the EU and London were to stop.
I'm a proud Londoner and a shamed English man after this referendum. Time for London to have its devolution. Let's do the out on the outers.
Oh yeah, just one last thing - London voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and considering London has a bigger population than Northern Ireland and Scotland put together then we should have our own separate chart alongside with the other regions on the Hexus news page.
sykobee
…killed off Boris…
No it hasn't - like a bad penny he'll be back when he thinks the dust has settled.
Top_gun
Absolutely. We are the wealth creators. The regions who voted out would have reduced wealth if the handouts from the EU and London were to stop.
I'm a proud Londoner and a shamed English man after this referendum. Time for London to have its devolution. Let's do the out on the outers.
Oh yeah, just one last thing - London voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and considering London has a bigger population than Northern Ireland and Scotland put together then we should have our own separate chart alongside with the other regions on the Hexus news page.
Whilst I understand your sentiment, it would be a dangerous road to go down “I earn more, therefore my vote is worth more”. In fact, as you said, London has a large population and favoured Remain but was still outnumbered by the rest of the country. London as a city state has been proposed but I can't see it working. A lot of people commute and with controlled borders (you know, to stop those pesky Europeans sneaking in via London!) It would quickly deteriorate; if you thought London property prices were high before…
If you're going to tell a lie, tell a big one.
Feel like us Scot's were sold a pup!Vote leave to the UK & you can't stay in EU the biggest stick we were beaten with,we vote stay both times & get screwed twice.
Scotland still looking more attractive than England to me right now.
Noxvayl
I'm ashamed to have heritage from this sorry island, and glad to be able to identify as African having grown up on the continent.
1 for nationalistic fervor - 0 for cooperation (at least in Europe).
I need some work experience (Civil Engineering student) and I'm now considering using the family I have back home to live with while I get some site based work experience. I'm also seriously considering whether living in the Northern Hemisphere is a good idea.
Lastly I'm glad I didn't waste any money on becoming a British citizen… who knows what good that is going to be in the future now.
Bye, close the door on your way out. Insulting my homeland is your way of commenting on the referendum? And you wonder why people want to put a stop to uncontrolled migration because people like yourself admit to not liking the UK but was quite willing to use it to better yourself. Typical!
Gerrard
Whilst I understand your sentiment, it would be a dangerous road to go down “I earn more, therefore my vote is worth more”. In fact, as you said, London has a large population and favoured Remain but was still outnumbered by the rest of the country. London as a city state has been proposed but I can't see it working. A lot of people commute and with controlled borders (you know, to stop those pesky Europeans sneaking in via London!) It would quickly deteriorate; if you thought London property prices were high before…
For me, we have regions who are not pulling their economic weight. Whose people who are set on causing economic harm for the rest of the UK. It's like they're saying “we are not benefiting from the economy so neither will you”. Leaving the EU will not all of a sudden make them prosper. Blaming immigrants for their shortfall is just a self-delusional thinking.
It makes sense to separate London from the rest of England on the basis of diametric reasons. We are different politically and intellectually.
Phage
Scotland still looking more attractive than England to me right now.
Wait until they lose all of their money from the rUK. they'll have to endure Greek levels of cutbacks and tax rises to fund their £15bn deficit if they leave the UK.
The only thing keeping Scotland afloat right now is the £10bn from the rUK.
wobbly
Bye, close the door on your way out. Insulting my homeland is your way of commenting on the referendum? And you wonder why people want to put a stop to uncontrolled migration because people like yourself admit to not liking the UK but was quite willing to use it to better yourself. Typical!
It's people like you who give brits a bad name. I want you out.
Top_gun
For me, we have regions who are not pulling their economic weight. Whose people who are set on causing economic harm for the rest of the UK. It's like they're saying “we are not benefiting from the economy so neither will you”.
We have seem some evidence that some votes were a protest against the Government, but I don't think the majority of the Leave votes were that. Most people
thought they would be better off leaving. If the campaigns had been done more competently, maybe people would have had a better idea of whether that would be true or not. However, I think the whole thing is to complex to say for definite for individual cases.
Top_gun
Leaving the EU will not all of a sudden make them prosper. Blaming immigrants for their shortfall is just a self-delusional thinking.
Agreed, although I am sure there will be a couple of cases where this does come true.
Top_gun
It makes sense to separate London from the rest of England on the basis of diametric reasons. We are different politically and intellectually.
The same could be said for the UK with regards to the EU! And I am sure you could break London down further if you wanted.
Bagpuss
Wait until they lose all of their money from the rUK. they'll have to endure Greek levels of cutbacks and tax rises to fund their £15bn deficit if they leave the UK.
The only thing keeping Scotland afloat right now is the £10bn from the rUK.
Funny enough, I am sure the EU was thinking similar things about the UK! One of the reasons Scotland remained was that the Independant campaign originally said they would remain part of the EU by default, to which the EU basically said they would have to go through the same application process as any other country outside the EU. It will be interesting if they change their minds about that now and allow them to remain by default?
Gerrard
Whilst I understand your sentiment, it would be a dangerous road to go down “I earn more, therefore my vote is worth more”. In fact, as you said, London has a large population and favoured Remain but was still outnumbered by the rest of the country. London as a city state has been proposed but I can't see it working. A lot of people commute and with controlled borders (you know, to stop those pesky Europeans sneaking in via London!) It would quickly deteriorate; if you thought London property prices were high before…
They can have water from the north at 1 million pounds a gallon.
wazzickle
It's people like you who give brits a bad name. I want you out.
How do I give “Brit”s a bad name? Come on really, I would like to know. I was just stating that some people in the UK feel that they are being taken for a ride. This is my opinion on how some people feel and believe it or not other people do have views which do not align with your own. However, as I have learnt recently, you are branded a racist, old, or fascist if you voted out. I'm not against free movement of people nor am I against the EU principle as a whole. What I am concerned for is my country's well being and that doesn't make me a racist, fascist but I can't change being old. The EU could have worked if they were willing to change with the times but it isn't willing to do that.
Would you stay with a woman that always said no and didn't want to entertain your ideas on how to keep your relationship in one piece? No, you would probably divorce her.
Ah well, you lost the vote and yet you all want another referendum? That's modern day democracy at it's best and knowing how the British are nowadays you will probably get it. However, iof it happens you will have far bigger problems to worry about that Scotland leaving as it will probably trigger riots across the UK.
However, as I said that's my opinion which is obviously not allowed on here anymore so I will STFU and not bother contributing. Same tree hugging bull#### everywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn_6sU7O43w
Brilliant. Haven't laughed so much in years. People throwing their toys out the pram and panicking over nothing and the establishment getting a bloody nose has been thoroughly entertaining.
It's a national disgrace. I'm utterly sickened by the lies from leave - yes remain was terrible, but almost nothing leave said was true, and they have immediately back-tracked on their ‘key’ points. Aaron Banks admitted early on that “remain has all the facts” - ie leave was all about emotion and stirring up anger at Cameron.
Cameron's call for a referendum was a power grab tactic in 2015 of the lowest order. The reason it really backfired was that he didn't care which way it went (he's got his millions anyway thanks), it served its purpose of getting Tory power without any form of control from eg Lib Dems as in the previous term.
But all leaders in the last few decades have been ‘blaming’ the EU and claiming they've had to have really tough negotiations for Britain, but they won (!), so there has been a stirring up of resentment against the EU, based largely (but not exclusively) on falsehoods, for decades.
Couple that innate bias against the EU with the years of austerity that have left the poorest in society in a far worse state, with a widening wealth gap, and a PM they can finally blame, and a campaign from the absolute pits of hell, and you have a perfect storm to trick as many people into hating the EU instead of seeing the very real benefits - as well as some of the negative sides - which have helped us get to the 5th largest economy globally. Oh sorry, 6th now. GJ outers. :/
The real problem is right wing politics, unchallenged on the left in large part due to massive right-wing bias in the media, but also a ‘left’ which is composed heavily of blairite labour MPs - ie tory-lite!
Before very recently starting out as an indie developer, I spent many years in academic drug discovery working on cancer and tuberculosis therapeutics. I may have to give up my very new career as an indie developer if the country's state doesn't improve. Almost the entire science community was for remain, not because they have noses in the trough, but because of the very real organisational and leadership benefits our EU membership brings, along with free movement of people which is absolutely critical in scientific research. But this wasn't a vote about facts. It wasn't a vote about the EU, it was for many a vote about ‘do you like Cameron and Osborne,’ and the obvious answer to *that* question is NO.
I feel devastated by the lack of ability of people to see how they were played by the clever leave campaign. If leave had been selling something, they'd be in prison now for the lies they told, but because they were not held accountable for anything they said or printed, they could just go gung-ho on the bollocks to deceive as many as possible.
Couple of useful links about what we may still be able to do to maintain our EU membership:
https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1304633102897424/https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/07/01/professor-c-graylings-letter-650-mps-urging-parliament-not-support-motion-trigger-article-50-lisbon-treaty-1-july-2016/And the most important one PLEASE SIGN THIS!
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/133767
I'm not convinced the official campaigns changed people's minds, probably because both were so bad. The polls didn't change much:
wobbly
What I am concerned for is my country's well being and that doesn't make me a racist, fascist but I can't change being old. The EU could have worked if they were willing to change with the times but it isn't willing to do that.
<Snip>
Ah well, you lost the vote and yet you all want another referendum? That's modern day democracy at it's best and knowing how the British are nowadays you will probably get it. However, iof it happens you will have far bigger problems to worry about that Scotland leaving as it will probably trigger riots across the UK.
However, as I said that's my opinion which is obviously not allowed on here anymore so I will STFU and not bother contributing. Same tree hugging bull#### everywhere.
Maybe that tree hugging bull#### and being branded a racist or fascist has something to do with the implied threat of violence, say what you like about one side or the other but to imply there's going to be violence if people don't get their way is bordering on extremist behavior.
All these champions of democracy popping up recently! But tell me, why is one referendum democratic, and two referenda undemocratic? Anyone?
wazzickle
All these champions of democracy popping up recently! But tell me, why is one referendum democratic, and two referenda undemocratic? Anyone?
Because, believe it or not, you cannot run referenda until you get the vote you want… if there is a 2nd and Remainers still don't get it… I predict a high possibility that there will be a 3rd, 4th and 5th… etc
Well strictly speaking you can, it's just hypocrisy of the highest order.
s1lv3r
Because, believe it or not, you cannot run referenda until you get the vote you want… if there is a 2nd and Remainers still don't get it… I predict a high possibility that there will be a 3rd, 4th and 5th… etc
But the referendum was on the status quo, if the EU changed then surely you could ask the people again whether they now prefer the new EU or still want to leave.
Potbellieddwarf
Personally I think it is going to be the best thing for the UK in the long run, but the best news in my mind was David Cameron resigning.
I agree, just not sure how long that run is going to be. If we could have voted out with no economic consequences, that would have been my choice, but I feel like we've lost a war, and the country is more divided now. As for the fall in the value of the pound - we're seeing that in graphics cards aren't we…
Just not sure we need another recession right now, and the country (and the Labour Party) is leaderless and vulnerable. And finally, Farage - tell the man to shut up because telling everyone I told you so makes us all look like fools - we have to negotiate with the people he's insulting!
wobbly
snip
LMAO,“butt hurt millenials” - so basically people like you and the mates have gone to the level of supporting calling the people who will support our pensions and increasing social care costs for the next 50 to 60 years as “butt hurt”. People like you and your mates who are desperately ignoring all the back tracks from major Leave campaigners,and are getting more and more annoyed when it is pointed it out to you - almost like a cult of personality around some of these Leave campaign figures.
wazzickle
The EU commission and president are chosen in exactly the same manner that our ministers and PM are chosen - the representatives we democratically elect choose, democratically, amongst themselves, who they want to do the job. The fact that you were not aware of what was going on and when is some combination of your fault and that of our media.
This.
wobbly
How do I give “Brit”s a bad name? Come on really, I would like to know.
By implying violence and using language like butt-hurt, treehugger, bull#### and by posting polemics including the very words you profess to be against. You come cross poorly to say the least.
I was just stating that some people in the UK feel that they are being taken for a ride.
By whom ? The EU ? The ‘Establishment’ ? Sounds like this article had it spot on. It's all about inequality. You can thank the Tories for that.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminsterThis is my opinion on how some people feel and believe it or not other people do have views which do not align with your own. [However, as I have learnt recently, you are branded a racist, old, or fascist if you voted out. I'm not against free movement of people nor am I against the EU principle as a whole. What I am concerned for is my country's well being and that doesn't make me a racist, fascist but I can't change being old. The EU could have worked if they were willing to change with the times but it isn't willing to do that.
Well, they're certainly not going to listen to us now.
Would you stay with a woman that always said no and didn't want to entertain your ideas on how to keep your relationship in one piece? No, you would probably divorce her.
Odd argument that. Not sure that it's possible to compare the two.
Ah well, you lost the vote and yet you all want another referendum? That's modern day democracy at it's best and knowing how the British are nowadays you will probably get it. However, iof it happens you will have far bigger problems to worry about that Scotland leaving as it will probably trigger riots across the UK.
Threats of violence ? Nice. Yes, I would mourn the breakup of the UK. But hey, no price too high to ‘Stick it to the Man’
However, as I said that's my opinion which is obviously not allowed on here anymore so I will STFU and not bother contributing.
It would seem that most people would agree with you. You should always contribute.
Same tree hugging bull#### everywhere.
This needs no rebuttal. It is an insight into your viewpoint.
The video is quite funny. It does show that the whole Referendum was information poor. However it was Gove who said that people don't want expert opinion.
What I've noticed recently about the young is:- many\few are saying “I am European\EU citizen” yet if IIRC it was once “I am a citizen of the world”…h'mm well
excalibur2
What I've noticed recently about the young is:- many\few are saying “I am European\EU citizen” yet if IIRC it was once “I am a citizen of the world”…h'mm well
Because you need to consider that many of the young have grown up in an increasingly connected world,unlike us oldies and many of them in the larger cities have experienced more of alternate cultures and peoples than the rest of the country. I lived in more than one country and saw the same - it is the very nature of many large cities around the world,especially capitals and those with big university populations that this happens.
Hence,for a decent amount of them its business as usual,as opposed to the fear(some might be unfounded,some might be true),that people elsewhere might have regarding all of this. Its the same everywhere in the world now. Remember,some of the areas which strongly voted leave had some of the lowest levels of migration in the country and any migration to those areas,was usually by people
outside the EU anyway. Yet,EU migration was still a concern.
It also shows an increasing disconnect between different parts of the country - seen comments about London and a number of home counties on the interwebs being in a bubble and disconnected,and how unfair it is they get all the investment. Where as I do agree we do need more investment and decentralisation in this country(you should visit places like Sheffield,and outside the centre and university areas,just lots of closed down businesses,empty houses,etc),there is a Dick Whittington level of expectation that I get that people think the streets of London are “paved with gold” and people forget that nearly 1 in 6 people in England live in a tiny area.
In reality there are plenty in London who are just barely getting by and London still pays a net contribution to prop up other areas of the country.
The issue is that if more and more of the rest of the country starts having ago at the wealthier parts of the country,they might as well say we support ourselves,we want all our tax pounds for our people as we have poor people too,and that the other areas of the country should stand on their own two feet instead of complaining.
If you want a job move down here then.
This referendum has just ended up stirring up all the internal divisions in this country and class,age and regional divides we have in this country.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
This referendum has just ended up stirring up all the internal divisions in this country and class,age and regional divides we have in this country.
Exactly - This has very little to do with the EU, and everything to do with inequality.
phage
exactly - this has very little to do with the eu, and everything to do with perceived inequality.
ftfy.
excalibur2
But the referendum was on the status quo, if the EU changed then surely you could ask the people again whether they now prefer the new EU or still want to leave.
What, like the last 40 years? I think this is one thing that tipped some people in favour for Leave; it was for me.
If we could have voted for no more change, everything staying the same, then I would probably agree just because of human nature more than anything else. But history shows this hasn't, and almost certainly, will not be the case. And
when the EU makes little changes here and there, and we don't get the vote, it just builds up more resentment amongst the public (via the media and probably politicians themselves). I know people mentioned the referendums that a couple of countries had for the Lisbon treaty (Denmark and Netherlands?), but I haven't researched into the exact implications of the results, so apologies for the generalisation here: I think those countries voted against it and I believe won some concessions, but it wasn't exactly an “options” list for which parts of the EU you can or can't agree to (for better or for worse). If there was a fairly big change in the future, and we did vote against it, it may be that Leave would “win” and we end up here again anyway.
I also think that it is obviously a lot easier to see the some of the flaws of the results of Leave now, but it would be 5-10 years down the line before you could start to point out some of the flaws of the possible long term effects of the campaigns (EU army, Turkey joining for better or for worse etc.). By then, any information about these will be in hind-sight and I am sure people now would say that didn't see it coming, and others will say “the signs were here”. I fully expect some of these posts in these referendum threads to get quoted in a few years' time with “Told you so!” :P
excalibur2
What I've noticed recently about the young is:- many\few are saying “I am European\EU citizen” yet if IIRC it was once “I am a citizen of the world”…h'mm well
I avoid using that term because it sounds a bit grandiose, and unlike the EU, there are no passports that allows you to live -everywhere- in the world.
But I do have family on 5 continents. I have lived (not just as a tourist) in a dozen countries, and visited about three dozens. As far as identity is concerned, I am squarely a
TCK.
And yes, I wish for not only for a more united Europe, but a more united world where we can accept each other. I struggle to understand why some people prefer to be divided than united.
Gerrard
What, like the last 40 years? I think this is one thing that tipped some people in favour for Leave; it was for me.
If we could have voted for no more change, everything staying the same, then I would probably agree just because of human nature more than anything else. But history shows this hasn't, and almost certainly, will not be the case. And when the EU makes little changes here and there, and we don't get the vote, it just builds up more resentment amongst the public (via the media and probably politicians themselves). I know people mentioned the referendums that a couple of countries had for the Lisbon treaty (Denmark and Netherlands?), but I haven't researched into the exact implications of the results, so apologies for the generalisation here: I think those countries voted against it and I believe won some concessions, but it wasn't exactly an “options” list for which parts of the EU you can or can't agree to (for better or for worse). If there was a fairly big change in the future, and we did vote against it, it may be that Leave would “win” and we end up here again anyway.
I also think that it is obviously a lot easier to see the some of the flaws of the results of Leave now, but it would be 5-10 years down the line before you could start to point out some of the flaws of the possible long term effects of the campaigns (EU army, Turkey joining for better or for worse etc.). By then, any information about these will be in hind-sight and I am sure people now would say that didn't see it coming, and others will say “the signs were here”. I fully expect some of these posts in these referendum threads to get quoted in a few years' time with “Told you so!” :P
Interesting to know that if we do leave the EU and after say 5 years we don't like out can we just join again….come to think of it, all the EU countries could try in and out and would be very disruptive so there must be some rule\article for this situation.
TooNice
I avoid using that term because it sounds a bit grandiose, and unlike the EU, there is no passport that allows you to live -everywhere- in the world.
But I do have family on 5 continents. I have lived (not just as a tourist) in a dozen countries and visited about three dozens. As far as identity is concerned, I am squarely a TCK.
Well I was just thinking (well trying to get into a young person's mind :) ) that in leaving the EU it would seem you are more likely to call yourself a world citizen than in a closed shop like the EU.
excalibur2
Well I was just thinking (well trying to get into a young person's mind :) ) that in leaving the EU it would seem you are more likely to call yourself a world citizen than in a closed shop like the EU.
Nope,because being in the EU means visa free access and an easier ability to work in another country,which is probably the “ideals” of a “world citizen”.
;)
That's one of the problems in the referendum in that the young voted different to the oldies…I would never consider myself to be a EU or world citizen.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It also shows an increasing disconnect between different parts of the country - seen comments about London and a number of home counties on the interwebs being in a bubble and disconnected,and how unfair it is they get all the investment….
What makes those comments even stranger is that the most deprived area in the UK is just 80 miles from the center of London in one of those home counties.
Gerrard
But history shows this hasn't, and almost certainly, will not be the case. And when the EU makes little changes here and there, and we don't get the vote, it just builds up more resentment amongst the public (via the media and probably politicians themselves).
The same criticism can be leveled at the UK political system though, we don't get a say
when the UK makes little changes here and there, and we don't get the vote, we elect representatives that vote on those changes for us, and we can throw them out every 5 years be they in the EU or the UK, we done so in every GE since we joined the EU, Thatcher started out with a Europhile stance, she wanted more integration with the EU, Labour at the time was Eurosceptic and wanted less, we, the UK public voted for more integration and they (the then government) enacted our wishes and voted accordingly, including signing us up to the Schengen Agreement,Single European Act, and the Maastricht Treaty, then we elected a similarly Europhile Blair government who signed the Amsterdam Treaty on our behalf.
Basically if we didn't want our governments to vote for changes that resulted in higher levels of integration then would shouldn't have elected governments that said that's what they'd do.
Gutted, Sadly, I feel a place that felt like a home and ive been working here for nearly the last 20 years just told me to get lost, im not sure where I belong now.
I kinda hope it was meant to be more a protest vote against the widening divide between the rich and the poor in the Uk.
Tetragons
Gutted, Sadly, I feel a place that felt like a home and ive been working here for nearly the last 20 years just told me to get lost, im not sure where I belong now.
I kinda hope it was meant to be more a protest vote against the widening divide between the rich and the poor in the Uk.
Don't feel that way - 48.1% of people who voted have said we are OK with you being here. If you live in the largest cities or Scotland even more feel that way. So don't feel disheartened.
BTW,the protest vote last elections was for the Tories,so does that mean people are protest voting against the protest vote they made?? So are they now protesting against themselves?? :p
excalibur2
Well I was just thinking (well trying to get into a young person's mind :) ) that in leaving the EU it would seem you are more likely to call yourself a world citizen than in a closed shop like the EU.
I am probably not even that young, depending on where you stand, but I will explain my point of view :)
I see two aspects: the first one is legal, and second one is your personal identity. The legal one, is basically your nationality/nationalities. You do not get to choose that one. A British citizen who emigrated to China during the first year of his life will still be British his whole life, provided that he doesn't renounce his British citizenship. Your identity though is pretty much whatever you want/feel. It could Londoner or it could be World citizen or anything in between. In the former example, there's a fair chance that our British citizen would identity himself as Chinese, especially if he didn't grow up in an ex-pat bubble.
I consider EU citizenship to be closer to a regular citizenship than just a personal identity a Londoner, or a world citizen neither of which offer any special rights. EU citizenship grants you certain legal rights that non EU citizens do not have. Apparently, there are even EU embassies (I admit that I've never been to one). So to me, it means that people can legally be British/EU citizen, while identifying themselves as a World citizen (or Londoner, English, British only, etc.).
CAT-THE-FIFTH
… BTW,the protest vote last elections was for the Tories,so does that mean people are protest voting against the protest vote they made?? So are they now protesting against themselves?? :p
If the Leave vote
was a protest (and it's certainly possible that a degree of it was, whether that's enough to make up the difference in the result or not) there's no reason to assume that it was made by the same people who protested by voting Conservative previously. More than 75% of the electorate didn't vote Conservative at the 2015 general election, so there's plenty of people out there who might want to protest against the Conservatives.
scaryjim
If the Leave vote was a protest (and it's certainly possible that a degree of it was, whether that's enough to make up the difference in the result or not) there's no reason to assume that it was made by the same people who protested by voting Conservative previously. More than 75% of the electorate didn't vote Conservative at the 2015 general election, so there's plenty of people out there who might want to protest against the Conservatives.
Remember,only around 30 million people bothered to vote in the last general election,and half of those voted Conservative and UKIP. In my estimation by extension plenty of those who bothered to vote also would have voted in this referendum anyway.
But then there are those who voted the Tories in greater numbers than the previous one as a protest against people like the Lib Dems. However,I find it quite interesting going from the last few general elections about the figures saying a decent number of civil servants voted for the Tories,even though the same Tories are probably going to make a lot of those very jobs redundant. The same goes with UKIP who had called people on benefits scroungers and were supportive of workfare programmes,and they had millions of votes.
TooNice
A British citizen who emigrated to China during the first year of his life will still be British his whole life, provided that he doesn't renounce his British citizenship.
I don't think you can legally renounce British Citizenship. I once met an American civil servant who was born in Scotland. He was required to take American citizenship and swear the allegiance bit and renounce Any other citizenship before taking up post. Thee first was easy, but when he applied to renounce UK citizenship, he was told that there was no mechanism to do it.
Born a Brit, always a Brit.
I think renouncing British Citizenship became a thing in 2013.
I voted to stay in because i did not expect there to be a viable plan to exit. I have heard from a lot of people who said if they knew there was no exit plan they would have voted differently.
Corky34
I think renouncing British Citizenship became a thing in 2013.
Thank you.
Looks as if you can now, but only if you are a dual national or wish to become a national of a regime that doesn't permit dual nationality. You can't become Stateless. Interesting reading the conditions to regain UK nationality - it isn't necessarily automatic.
peterb
Thee first was easy, but when he applied to renounce UK citizenship, he was told that there was no mechanism to do it.
Hmm... I would be surprised if that was the case, but to be fair haven't looked into it enough to be sure.
Edit: Oops, took too long to reply. But yeah, my Google-fu would indicate that Americans can renounce their citizenship and end up stateless, but I can't think of many instances where it's desirable. Without a passport, I am not sure how you could enter another country, except perhaps as an asylum seeker, but then you'd probably have to become citizen of that country.
Since I have little desire to become a civil servant, and have a desire to live in various countries, multiple-citizenship is more appealing than no citizenship ;)
wobbly
Bye, close the door on your way out. Insulting my homeland is your way of commenting on the referendum? And you wonder why people want to put a stop to uncontrolled migration because people like yourself admit to not liking the UK but was quite willing to use it to better yourself. Typical!
:vacant:
FYI, the rest of the world dislikes your homeland as well… get used to it.
Oh and how has your family contributed to the British government? My grandfather helped build the railways of Southern Africa, as a British subject. Fought in the Boer wars as well. Is African history and your countries role in it not part of your education?
I think allowing me to immigrate, then go to university by paying for it with a loan is the very least this country can do in return.
I won't close the door on my way out, it isn't your house but mine as well. This referendum informed my preference for living within societies that are far more friendly.
Noxvayl
:vacant:
FYI, the rest of the world dislikes your homeland as well… get used to it.
Oh and how has your family contributed to the British government? My grandfather helped build the railways of Southern Africa, as a British subject. Fought in the Boer wars as well. Is African history and your countries role in it not part of your education?
I think allowing me to immigrate, then go to university by paying for it with a loan is the very least this country can do in return.
I won't close the door on my way out, it isn't your house but mine as well. This referendum informed my preference for living within societies that are far more friendly.
Good Lord if you are going back in history we should be claiming compensation from Norway for what the Vikings did in the British Isles. :(
yeah and handily skip over the wanton death and economic destruction that we wreaked on the world between the 16th and 19th centuries.
the vikings bettered our bloodstream. we'd be nowhere without them. well, i mean, we wouldn't have had the cultural desire to conquer the rest of the world so would just be another subjugated nation. or, in other words….. :clapping: IMMIGRATION :clapping:
excalibur2
Good Lord if you are going back in history we should be claiming compensation from Norway for what the Vikings did in the British Isles. :(
And what about the compensation that Greece claimed from the German government? Same level of history I'm talking about, within the generation of people that are currently living… You should thank the vikings for their good genes, especially if you have blue eyes. Scale is important.
Anyway… perhaps it best not to remind people of the past, it seems a lot more troubled in Europe and we have more history yet to come :)
Harrumph… Putting on a moderators hat (tricky when I've taken part in the discussion) but please let's not this degenerate into personal attacks. Stating ones origins may be a perfectly acceptable way to explain ones particular point of view (particularly as forums are anonymous from that point of view) but that should not open the poster to abuse on the basis of their origins - so let's not have anymore comments of that type please.
I know passions are running high, and I have made due allowance for that - but please don't let those passions over-ride normal HEXUS standards of debate.
The only intelligent comments I’ve seen on Brexit are the people saying that the vote is done and trying to undo it or the many other arguments to make it void (e.g. old people shouldn’t vote) is undemocratic. Anyone for a turnover of the vote is supporting one of the main reasons most people voted leave (loss of democratic power to make our own choices). Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation. The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.
Ironbuket
Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation.
Disagree. Generalisations are useful to a point, but lets not conflate the pointing to and dislike of nationalist fervour for racism.
Ironbuket
The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.
Indeed, it is best for everyone to move swiftly on from this… but we are woefully unprepared. That is part of the frustration for the 48% of us that find this referendum highly annoying in almost every regard.
Ironbuket
The only intelligent comments I’ve seen on Brexit are the people saying that the vote is done and trying to undo it or the many other arguments to make it void (e.g. old people shouldn’t vote) is undemocratic. Anyone for a turnover of the vote is supporting one of the main reasons most people voted leave (loss of democratic power to make our own choices).
And yet we get no say in who our next PM is going to be or what type of relationship the countries going to have with the EU, to me that seems more undemocratic than rerunning the referendum but this time around not allowing democracy to be subverted with misleading information and near outright lies (from both sides), a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy and the electorate was fed misinformation (again from both sides).
Ironbuket
Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation. The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.
Well based on last nights panorama I'd say those generalisations are well founded, either panorama or Adrian Chiles painted leave voters in a very poor light IMO.
Ironbuket
The only intelligent comments I’ve seen on Brexit are the people saying that the vote is done and trying to undo it or the many other arguments to make it void (e.g. old people shouldn’t vote) is undemocratic. Anyone for a turnover of the vote is supporting one of the main reasons most people voted leave (loss of democratic power to make our own choices). Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation. The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.
It's not that simple. We're not voting for who runs the UK for the next four years, this is a long term decision that might ultimately see the collapse of the UK and show just how woefully unprepared we are for whats to come. I think we must be open to debate and the country 100% certain we are making the best choice for the UK. If that requires a generally election then so be it.
Corky34
And yet we get no say in who our next PM is going to be or what type of relationship the countries going to have with the EU, to me that seems more undemocratic than rerunning the referendum but this time around not allowing democracy to be subverted with misleading information and near outright lies (from both sides), a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy and the electorate was fed misinformation (again from both sides).
jigger
It's not that simple. We're not voting for who runs the UK for the next four years, this is a long term decision that might ultimately see the collapse of the UK and show just how woefully unprepared we are for whats to come. I think we must be open to debate and the country 100% certain we are making the best choice for the UK. If that requires a generally election then so be it.
Good points both - funnily enough, (based on my very unscientific survey), 100% of the Leave folks I asked are now of the opinion that they would have voted the other way - basing their original (maybe not the best way to put it, but I'm sure you understand) vote on promises which Gove, Farage and Johnson backtracked on pretty sharpish post-vote. Also while the victors are loudly exclaiming that “democracy must be respected” what about the component nations such as Scotland and NI who overwhelmingly voted to stay - I can see the point of the SNP etc that if EU democracy is a remote and unrepresentative sham then perhaps those self-same opinions may hold water for Westminister.
Jigger's point is also a good one - it seems likely that the Tories will lurch further to the right, so it is perhaps valid to suggest that the government that was elected last year is distinctly different from “this year's model” and that a reaffirmation of the mandate is needed.
I dare say that some will see my views as more Brussels-appeasing sour grapes, but at this point I careth not…
… besides I live in Scotland, which is more and more likely to go it's own way in the foreseeable future. :p
Let me get my big wooden spoon out, because we seem to be losing some traction here…. :p
Noxvayl
Indeed, it is best for everyone to move swiftly on from this… but we are woefully unprepared.
Agreed, but that is no reason to ‘go with the flow’ because we are scared of what the future might bring, and no politician has told the electorate in black and white what the outcome will be…. no one knows!
Corky34
a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy
Wrong! Age and nationality of the UK is a prerequisite, intelligence and being well informed do not count for diddly. Lets not be blind to think that only the mentally challenged voted leave, as is common judgement from all remainers, with 16 million voting remain you can be sure you had your fair share.
Corky34
yet we get no say in who our next PM is going to be
But under normal circumstances we would vote for a party with the party leader positioned to be the PM.
Corky34
based on last nights panorama I'd say those generalisations are well founded, either panorama or Adrian Chiles painted leave voters in a very poor light IMO.
If you tried for a second to put yourself in the shoes of the average leave voters in the north, who can't find a job because immigrants are doing it for half the price, who can't find a council house, because the immigrants are first in line, struggle to get a doctors appointment etc etc. In that particular Panorama episode it featured father cannot provide for his family because the line of work he is trained in, is swamped by immigrants. Rather than branding them stupid or racist, how about you have some compassion for your fellow Britain's.
crossy
100% of the Leave folks I asked are now of the opinion that they would have voted the other way
All the people I know that voted leave are still adamant that they would vote the same way.
This topic is toxic to say the least and I thought the apple vs andriod rivalry was bad.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/immigrants-your-area-really-come-8197510Thousands of migrants have flocked to the North in search a new place to live - but their origins could surprise you.
Migrants who have chosen to make the region their home are most likely to come from Libya, Australia, America, and China - and not from Europe, we can reveal.
The truth of the North’s immigrant population is laid out just days after prime minister David Cameron announced a major crackdown on migrants from the European Union - vowing that European immigrants will have to wait four years until they are able to start claiming benefits and will have to find a job here within six months.
Our figures, based on data from the 2011 census, show that the region is most popular with migrants from across the world rather than eastern European countries.
And some of the countries the new arrivals call home are surprising - with lots of Aussies heading to Northumberland, Libyans in Middlesbrough, Spaniards in North Tyneside, Redcar and Stockton, and Americans in County Durham.
Blyth MP Ronnie Campbell said claims about rocketing immigration in the region are greatly exaggerated.
He said: “It’s a farce. In this area we don’t have the big immigration issue that you have in some of the bigger cities like London and Birmingham.
“They have got problems with immigration and the effect on social services, but not up here. These claims are over exaggerated.”
The region as a whole has fewer immigrants than the national average, according to the 2011 data.
In Teesside, less than 3,000 immigrants moved to Middlesbrough, Stockton and Redcar and Cleveland from abroad in the year leading up to the census.
It means that there were just 5.5 immigrants for every 1,000 people in the area - less than half the English average of 11.3.
In Tyneside and Northumberland, immigration was also far below the national average - coming in at just 6.9 immigrants for every 1,000 residents.
However in Newcastle, levels of immigration were above average, with 20 migrants for every 1,000 people in the city.
In Middlesbrough, the greatest number of immigrants came from Libya, at 145, while Spaniards were the most likely to have moved to Redcar and Cleveland and Stockton areas in 2011.
Newcastle is the UK city that Vietnamese people are most likely to choose as their new home, according to the data, which analysed the number of people whose addresses had changed in the year of the 2011 census.
But it is Chinese migrants who make up the the largest chunk of the city’s immigrant population, with almost 6,000 Chinese migrants arriving in the city. Of that number, 1,235 had come to study at Newcastle University.
Emily Lam, director of The Chinese Centre in Newcastle, said: “The living cost is mainly the reason Chinese people come here. They choose here rather than London because they can not afford London.”
Chinese migrants were also the highest proportion of the immigrant population in Sunderland, where 1,620 Chinese settled in 2011.
“When they think about moving up it may be because of the support,” Emily added. “They have seen people that already have set up a business here.
“In a way the Chinese community is bigger in places like Manchester but the people here in the North East are so friendly.”
In Northumberland, it was Australians who made up the largest segment of the immigrant population - with more than 1,000 Australians arriving in the county in 2011 - a figure than Northumberland Council appeared unable to find a reason for.
A spokesperson: “This figure would appear to be an anomaly, based on the way census data is calculated, rather than a real figure.
“However we are well-known as a welcoming county which attracts people from across the world, so it’s not surprising people from Australia may want to settle in Northumberland.”
And in County Durham, Americans that made up the largest segment of the immigrant population, with just under 3,000 US citizens who moved in 2011. Just under 600 were students at Durham University.
In South Tyneside, there were just over 500 Indian migrants arriving, with Gateshead’s new immigrant population being dominated by almost 1,000 Polish people, and North Tyneside’s migrant community seeing 722 Spaniards arrive.
Elsewhere in the UK, immigrants were most commonly from the US, Australia, India and Poland.
Mr Campbell added: “Since the beginning of the year they’ve said we’re going to be swamped by Romanians and Bulgarians and it’s not like that - at least not in the North East.”
It's generally skilled immigrants coming in from the EU and unskilled immigrants coming from outside the EU. If the average leave voter in the north thought he was voting to keep out the muslims and chinese and africans and asians, they were either lied to or dim. If they thought that it was somehow the EUs fault that the local infrastructure can't handle a relatively (to the number of people coming to London, or mainland europe) small number of people, and not woeful underinvestment by 30 years of successive governments, then they were either lied to or dim.
If someone comes over and does the same job as you for half the price, maybe it's you who needs to review your wage demands.
The fellow Brits I have compassion for are the ones that have immigrated but still have their first generation foreign accents and are being abused the country over for no reason other than the fact they're not white british. Not the ones who think this is somehow the fault of immigrants, rather than all the other factors playing against the entire country - banks & finance, economically right-wing politicians who underinvest in public services in the countryside, etc. Not the ones who think that voting to leave the EU will stop chinese cocklers coming. I have compassion for all the Brits who have seen through this not particularly elaborate ruse on the part of Gove, Johnson, Farage and the racist rags that are the mail and sun, and have had this terrible decision foisted on them. Not the ones who hear ‘eu elites’ and have the class chip on their shoulder activated, or the ones who hear ‘people in this country are sick of experts’ and get their education chip on their shoulder activated and stop thinking with their brain and make their decisions based on feelings alone, the feeling of worry of not having enough in the future, the feeling of anger of having had more than others in the past.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/immigrants-your-area-really-come-8197510
Right at the top of that article it states “Figures, based on 2011 census data, reveal that many of the region's immigrants are not from the EU”
wazzickle
If someone comes over and does the same job as you for half the price, maybe it's you who needs to review your wage demands.
Its basic maths, if the guy is offered a job for £200 a week and his rent is £600, plus council tax (£100 plus) then utilities and food for a young family. Its not feasible, but if a chap
was getting paid a living wage for a job, but was then looked over because an immigrant who would do the same job for half the money was available and because back in his native country the wage he gets here is substantially more than what he'd get at home.
I can't begrudge an immigrant for taking advantage of that opportunity, and having the courage to do so.
But as so many has mentioned, this has created a race to the bottom which natives in the UK do not have a chance in succeeding. If your in a well paid job… then why should you care… your alright… so screw the rest right?
We are a nation of immigrants, I have lived and worked in and around London for more than a decade, which regularly involves train and underground, and I have never seen an racist behaviour while travelling, and socialising in London. You are all probably are aware that any racist behaviour whether it be online or in real life is dealt with very swiftly, and rightly so in this day in age.
Britain is a nation of tolerance, if we were a racists nation we would have imploded after the second world war, when we were reliant on immigrants to rebuild everything. So the very idea that all leave voters are racists is complete fantasy. I am not suggesting that there aren't any racists, but as I said above, they will be in the minority, and usually in far flung areas of the UK which have never seen immigrants before, but the moment that one enters your world and you get to know them, then your opinions will change quite rapidly.
We are all humans after all trying to make a better life for ourselves, our family, our community, our country. Unfortunately
money, greed, religion and politicians in my eyes are the four big things standing in the way of humans exploring the stars ffs.
Peace out!
realstock
Its basic maths, if the guy is offered a job for £200 a week and his rent is £600, plus council tax (£100 plus) then utilities and food for a young family. Its not feasible, but if a chap was getting paid a living wage for a job, but was then looked over because an immigrant who would do the same job for half the money was available and because back in his native country the wage he gets here is substantially more than what he'd get at home.
I can't begrudge an immigrant for taking advantage of that opportunity, and having the courage to do so.
But as so many has mentioned, this has created a race to the bottom which natives in the UK do not have a chance in succeeding. If your in a well paid job… then why should you care… your alright… so screw the rest right?
It doesn't really matter how much he would have got paid at home, because he's living here and has to pay the living expenses that apply here, not the ones back home.
You say it's simple maths, I say it's simple economics. As long as there are regulations in place (such as minimum wage) and being applied, more competition is a good thing. If someone else in the same business environment is offering the same product for less, they deserve your business.
My perception - strengthened after the last couple of weeks - is that
England is a nation that likes to think of itself as tolerant and not racist but as soon as cracks appear at the seams, the racism comes out.
realstock
Wrong! Age and nationality of the UK is a prerequisite, intelligence and being well informed do not count for diddly. Lets not be blind to think that only the mentally challenged voted leave, as is common judgement from all remainers, with 16 million voting remain you can be sure you had your fair share.
Democracy isn't exclusive to the UK BTW. ;)
realstock
But under normal circumstances we would vote for a party with the party leader positioned to be the PM.
These aren't normal circumstances, if anything the extraordinary circumstances we find ourselves in are even more of a reason to hold a GE, to not too would mean we not only have no control over who our next PM is going to be at this vital time but also how far we want to take leaving the EU, that makes all the claims of people who supported leave sound very hollow after so many said it was about taking back control, and democracy.
realstock
If you tried for a second to put yourself in the shoes of the average leave voters in the north, who can't find a job because immigrants are doing it for half the price, who can't find a council house, because the immigrants are first in line, struggle to get a doctors appointment etc etc. In that particular Panorama episode it featured father cannot provide for his family because the line of work he is trained in, is swamped by immigrants. Rather than branding them stupid or racist, how about you have some compassion for your fellow Britain's.
I don't need to put myself in the shoes of an average leave voter in the north to know how hard life can be, but to be honest panorama painted then as a bunch of conceited, arrogant, selfish idiots.
I lost my job to Polish immigrants who were willing to work for less: Could do that because he didn't have 6 kids to support?
There's a lack of services in our area: Have these people been living under a rock for the past decade, haven't they noticed we've just had a recession and a government who been following an austerity fiscal model that's resulted in massive cuts to public services?
Woman whose never voted in her life but thought now would be a good time to exercise that right and make her voice heard: Did it not occur to her that maybe she should've made her voice heard in the past if she didn't like the way things were turning out?
Then there was the constant “I'm not racist but” and the “well it cant get any worse” from people who then went on to blame immigration for all their problems while all the time having a roof over their heads, if you think it can't get any worse try being homeless for 2-3 weeks then you'll know how much worse things can get, those are just some of the examples that i can remember from the panorama program that gave me a less than favorable opinion of the people who featured in it.
As an immigrant I can attest to the general feeling of England being a racist country, and I come from South Africa… Elitism of the highest order pervades this society and is so similar to the hated phrase of racism that I can't tell the difference. Immigration is a psychological tool used by politicians to stoke the natural concerns and worries of the general population. It works ridiculously well because it is very easy to identify with what you know, where you grew up and the community you've come to call home but very difficult to understand the abject poverty experienced by others and their desire to avail themselves of that desperation by moving to a new geographical area.
You want to pull at heart strings, go for it. But don't for one second believe that you can turn your back on the rest of the world and succeed in the modern era. We all depend on each other, and the overwhelming rhetoric of the leave campaign was focused on the fears of others coming a taking what is rightfully yours… Absolute and utter nonsense is what these last few months have been, and we continue to hear it in our politics today.
I fear for the future of this country if emotions dominate public discourse. It certainly has at the moment and doesn't look like that is changing any time soon.
Noxvayl
As an immigrant I can attest to the general feeling of England being a racist country, and I come from South Africa… Elitism of the highest order pervades this society and is so similar to the hated phrase of racism that I can't tell the difference. Immigration is a psychological tool used by politicians to stoke the natural concerns and worries of the general population. It works ridiculously well because it is very easy to identify with what you know, where you grew up and the community you've come to call home but very difficult to understand the abject poverty experienced by others and their desire to avail themselves of that desperation by moving to a new geographical area.
You want to pull at heart strings, go for it. But don't for one second believe that you can turn your back on the rest of the world and succeed in the modern era. We all depend on each other, and the overwhelming rhetoric of the leave campaign was focused on the fears of others coming a taking what is rightfully yours… Absolute and utter nonsense is what these last few months have been, and we continue to hear it in our politics today.
I fear for the future of this country if emotions dominate public discourse. It certainly has at the moment and doesn't look like that is changing any time soon.
…and there is no racism in South Africa or any other country in the world? You can't change human nature from not being prejudiced or not having a preference for any type of human being or nationality.
excalibur2
…and there is no racism in South Africa or any other country in the world? You can't change human nature from not being prejudiced or not having a preference for any type of human being or nationality.
Yeah, South Africa is racist against whites, as is most of Africa thanks to Europeans… Chinese hate the Japanese, but it the UK Manchester dislikes Liverpool, Southampton against Portsmouth, Protestants against Catholics and many more rivalries that perpetuate this abhorrent mindset within this country.
Europe has significantly more division within it and the EU project has been successful at reducing the impact of those divisions. As a spiteful and downright childish nation we've decided to cut off our nose to spite our face. There is no short term benefit to leaving the EU, and the long term benefit of the project has already delivered on its promise. I can't understand how people entertain the idea of “independence” or “sovereignty” being more important than anything else, which is what the leave vote boiled down to.
The vitriol coming from leave voters mouths as I sit in the sauna to relax is quite frankly more disturbing to me than the economic consequences of what has just occurred. The longer we allow that type of thinking not only to exist, but dominate our politics, the further down the slope we will end up.
excalibur2
…and there is no racism in South Africa or any other country in the world? You can't change human nature from not being prejudiced or not having a preference for any type of human being or nationality.
Wait… is your logic really ‘other people are racist so racism is fine’?
excalibur2
…and there is no racism in South Africa or any other country in the world? You can't change human nature from not being prejudiced or not having a preference for any type of human being or nationality.
Isn't that a bit like saying humans are aggressive by nature so we shouldn't bother trying to stop people from sorting out their problems through violence?
And besides racism and prejudiced isn't human nature, young children aren't racist or prejudiced, they're learnt behavior.
wazzickle
Wait… is your logic really ‘other people are racist so racism is fine’?
No!
if racism is prevalent around the world it's just a fact, anyway I think racism is wrongly used most times when it should be “prejudice and people's preference”….and it goes on is it nature or nuture or a bit of both. I remember once, someone on tv or newspaper (a white woman) and she said “I'm not a racist and not prejudice” but admitted she only had a few black friends out of many….h'mm
Corky34
Isn't that a bit like saying humans are aggressive by nature so we shouldn't bother trying to stop people from sorting out their problems through violence?
And besides racism and prejudiced isn't human nature, young children aren't racist or prejudiced, they're learnt behavior.
Difficult subject children as one report recently said “they do seperate out eventually”..maybe birds of a feather………….. and then if you go onto the subject “are humans basically the same as other animals” it gets complicated, and then you can go on to what's the most mixed country in the world Brazil? any racism or prejudice there..don't stop there and go back to the Roman empire.
So does anyone have an answer? What are the true facts?
The point being made is not whether racism, elitism or prejudice exists… it is whether it is worth our efforts to go against those thoughts or not. I don't feel it is acceptable for people to hold those views, and a social taboo is not quite strong enough surrounding this issue because “everyone has the right to their opinion”.
What matters is whether or not a system is helpful in reducing the prevalence of these views within populations. It seems that these views, and others that are equally abhorrent, have been encouraged recently.
Noxvayl
The point being made is not whether racism, elitism or prejudice exists… it is whether it is worth our efforts to go against those thoughts or not. I don't feel it is acceptable for people to hold those views, and a social taboo is not quite strong enough surrounding this issue because “everyone has the right to their opinion”.
What matters is whether or not a system is helpful in reducing the prevalence of these views within populations. It seems that these views, and others that are equally abhorrent, have been encouraged recently.
Well my point was in the history of the world has racism, prejudice etc ever gone away and can it be solved….another e.g. would be:- can with prevent people committing murder.
excalibur2
Difficult subject children as one report recently said “they do seperate out eventually”..maybe birds of a feather………….. and then if you go onto the subject “are humans basically the same as other animals” it gets complicated, and then you can go on to what's the most mixed country in the world Brazil? any racism or prejudice there..don't stop there and go back to the Roman empire.
So does anyone have an answer? What are the true facts?
Ahh that's the thing, infants identifying differences is something i would consider nature, what isn't is when those differences are used to make a negative distinction, a unfavorable judgment, or to treat them differently, when that happens it becomes racism and/or prejudiced.
excalibur2
Well my point was in the history of the world has racism, prejudice etc ever gone away and can it be solved….another e.g. would be:- can with prevent people committing murder.
The trend line is tending towards it disappearing… whether it has been in existence before, for how long and if it has ever been eradicated is irrelevant really.
Murder… why not look at where murder is exceptionally low? Like lots of communities in the nordic countries.
Noxvayl
The trend line is tending towards it disappearing… whether it has been in existence before, for how long and if it has ever been eradicated is irrelevant really.
Murder… why not look at where murder is exceptionally low? Like lots of communities in the nordic countries.
Not really as you can learn from history and if a problem has been solved then we should examine how they did it……and murder being low is not the same as humans being so peaceful they would never murder.
excalibur2
Not really as you can learn from history and if a problem has been solved then we should examine how they did it……and murder being low is not the same as humans being so peaceful they would never murder.
The world isn't binary… does it matter if humans can or cannot be perfectly peaceful? Humans and an individual component are less useful to think about than the environment in which they exist, because we can control the environment not the human.
Hmmm, looks like the media is massaging the
truth with regards to increase in reported racism since the brexit, also the raise in figures includes people complaining about
Farage!Looks like we are being sold a pup by the media… who saw that one coming!? lol
Lies, lies, lies, by both sides. I just wish we didn't have to wade through tides of bull crap to uncover some element of the truth.
Edit: Seems familiar
this, remainers didn't get their way and are intent on a smear campaign of all Leave voters, labeling them racist, stupid, old, xenophobic.
Quality source :rolleyes:
Apparently it's all a conspiracy by the Remainers….
Easy to dismiss if your intent in putting your head in the sand.
The fact that Breitbart is American source and is not swayed by the media in the UK is a breath of fresh air, and more importantly are reporting the torrent of abuse being directed to Leave voters, Farage and his family, which is being conveniently ignored by the UK media…. hmmmm. Open your eyes!
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
You keep on believing the media you prefer, makes no odds to me.
realstock
Hmmm, looks like the media is massaging the truth with regards to increase in reported racism since the brexit, also the raise in figures includes people complaining about Farage!
You do know that the NPCC announcement that breitbart based that story on was published 3 days after the referendum right? And that police forces report crime statistics on a monthly basis (afaik), right? Having said that
a recent blog post from the NPCC has this to say…
The national community tensions team has also analysed reports from forces which today shows an increase in community tension directed at the migrant community since the referendum. In a number of forces, migrants are reporting verbal abuse, negative social media commentary including xenophobic language, anti-migrant leafleting and, in very limited numbers, physical assaults. All of these incidents are under active investigation.
We want to make sure we have the full picture of tensions and hate crime so we are best equipped to tackle it and prevent it. NPCC Lead for Hate Crime, ACC Mark Hamilton has now asked all forces to provide weekly hate crime returns, which will be collated centrally.
So it looks like we wont have to wait until the end of the month for updated figures.
Yep fully aware of the dates involved.
Just to add to that the NPCC
article stated the following “This should not be read as a national increase in hate crime of 57% but an increase in reporting through one mechanism.”
Which basically means that someone can record a hate crime on their computer from home, so you can go to the right
website, record a crime in your county and fill in an form about the
alleged crime.
Just because it is reported, doesn't mean it actually happened, or that it is correctly classified as a hate crime.
When they actually follow up on the reports and find out the actual truth behind them, it will be interesting to see the statistics then.
Well that's long way from your initial claim that it "Looks like we are being sold a pup by the media"
I mean sure the media covered it as a rise in racism but if people depend on them to present facts in an unbiased manner then maybe that explains why we find ourselves in this current mess.
Breitbart is a pretty (very) conservative news source, which is echoing the reporting we got from our right-wing media (most of it), how were we ‘sold a pup’? We were more sold a pup by the Daily Mail, the Sun etc who told us before the vote that everything would be fine, then afterwards ‘Oh, hang on, we didn’t actually tell you THIS might happen, or that'…
Sunderas
sykobee
Yeah, England and Wales.
Cornwall (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Yorkshire (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Wales (voted leave): We will still get our massive EU funding, right?
Nope.
The only good thing is that it's shaking up the political establishment, dislodged Hameron, killed off Boris, and so on. Problem is the Tory candidates are all terrible horrible people.
Totally agree with you.
What a stupid, stupid thing to say. I'm from Cornwall. I voted out and I don't care if we lose our funding tomorrow. Things our council asks for on our behalf =/= what the citizens are asking for.
So much for taking back control then, it seems we're having problems just controlling what our local councils request funding for. ;)
it is going to be the best thing for the UK in the long run, but the best news in my mind was David Cameron resigning.
Tom G
realstock
Hmmm, looks like the media is massaging the truth with regards to increase in reported racism since the brexit, also the raise in figures includes people complaining about Farage!
Looks like we are being sold a pup by the media… who saw that one coming!? lol
Lies, lies, lies, by both sides. I just wish we didn't have to wade through tides of bull crap to uncover some element of the truth.
Edit: Seems familiar this, remainers didn't get their way and are intent on a smear campaign of all Leave voters, labeling them racist, stupid, old, xenophobic.
I rather like puppies and would love one from the media, to be honest, as they're usually quite evil (the media) and this way I get to raise it in a loving home.
realstock
Looks like we are being sold a pup by the media… who saw that one coming!? lol
Who would've though that the media and politicians would be in bed with each other, I'm more concerned that we've been
sold a pup when it comes to Farage.
Who would've thought that the public would be tricked into buying something that isn't worth anything.
Agreed, media will always want to mislead the public for their own ends, we can all agree on that at least. There must be more unbiased media out there that report on the news for just the sake of journalism.
Trade deals are already knocking at the door, this
one in particular seems interesting. Chinese already knocking at the door, partly due to frustrations of red tape of the EU, funny that :rolleyes:. New Zealand, Australia and many other country's in Asia.
It's not a matter of how many counties are lining up to make trade deals, it's what those deals eventually contain, based on how the Conservatives blocked the introduction of higher tariffs on Chinese Steel I'm not holding out much hope.
Whoever ends up in downing street needs to fulfil the promises from the leave campaign delivering investment in the national health service, cuts to immigration and show they have the metal to deliver solid trade deals without suffering the EU's red tape or freedom of movement policy. I would also like to know how the UK will secure it's borders
I'm not thrilled with the idea of 150,000 conservative party members picking the government or the idea that party electorate think it's good for us to have an investment banker from Guernsey running the country. Both the conservative party leader candidates are unelectable IMO, and having 150,000 party members making the decision of who leads the country over next 4 years and puts in place ground work that shapes the UK's future over the next 50 years is shameful.
I don't I think we should rule out another vote on leaving the EU before we know what direction the conservative party plans to take us. IMO a decision of this magnitude must first need a second vote on leaving the EU and then a generally election for the government to see that decision through.
Agreed but the point I was highlighting is that trade will still continue and potentially flourish with rest of the world regardless of EU threatening to play hardball. Which will cause them just as much hurt as it would potentially cause us. More importantly, the UK will be in control of negotiations without the irritation of 27 other members all wanting to ensure their interests are not diluted.
I'm not sure anyone ever said trade won't continue, it's not like people are going to stop buying and selling things, although to say it will potentially flourish is probably overstating the facts a little, if we fell back on WTO rules it's estimated it would cost us £11bn per year in tariffs, throw in the fact that we don't have any experienced negotiators, a tiny available market when compared to others, and a government that believes in a liberal market economy, i can't see any prospective trade deals being to our advantage.
Corky34
I'm not sure anyone ever said trade won't continue, it's not like people are going to stop buying and selling things, although to say it will potentially flourish is probably overstating the facts a little, if we fell back on WTO rules it's estimated it would cost us £11bn per year in tariffs, throw in the fact that we don't have any experienced negotiators, a tiny available market when compared to others, and a government that believes in a liberal market economy, i can't see any prospective trade deals being to our advantage.
Which is why the statements that we'll be better off in the future - are not only unlikely to be true, but resemble wishful thinking without any factual basis. (otherwise known as “Tosh”)
realstock
Easy to dismiss if your intent in putting your head in the sand.
The fact that Breitbart is American source and is not swayed by the media in the UK is a breath of fresh air, and more importantly are reporting the torrent of abuse being directed to Leave voters, Farage and his family, which is being conveniently ignored by the UK media…. hmmmm. Open your eyes!
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.
You keep on believing the media you prefer, makes no odds to me.
Of course the FT, the BBC, The Grauniad, The Independent, The Mirror, the Mail and Sky news (to name but a few) are all part of conspiracy. Whereas right wing bloggers are in sole posession of the truth. Occams razor.
You'll be calling us sheeple next.
Just wish I exchanged my money before the referendum
If anyone out of this whole mess deserves abuse, it's Farage.
Godric
eh we (Scotland) will be leaving the UK we voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU 62% to 38% … our place is in Europe and not the UK
Saor Alba
Another “once in a lifetime” vote eh? Lol.
wazzickle
If anyone out of this whole mess deserves abuse, it's Farage.
I did like his comment about most of the EU Parliament not ever having real jobs though haha
I though the guy behind him, who worked as a cardiac surgeon for six years, summed it up better with his face palm, .
Indifferent. The vote won't affect me greatly in the short term.
LHH
Indifferent. The vote won't affect me greatly in the short term.
Just don't buy anything that's imported because of the £ dropping :)
excalibur2
Just don't buy anything that's imported because of the £ dropping :)
Which is pretty much everything in the IT world :(
ultrasbm
Which is pretty much everything in the IT world :(
Have to hope the Raspberry Pi 4 is a real corker then :) (Unless Wales goes for independence).
wayn3h
What a stupid, stupid thing to say.
Not at all, it's entirely true!
wayn3h
I'm from Cornwall. I voted out and I don't care if we lose our funding tomorrow.
You will do in the not too distant future.
wayn3h
Things our council asks for on our behalf =/= what the citizens are asking for.
Well, you won't be getting either now.
DanceswithUnix
Have to hope the Raspberry Pi 4 is a real corker then :) (Unless Wales goes for independence).
Shame the chips are imported!! :( :p
Corky34
I though the guy behind him, who worked as a cardiac surgeon for six years, summed it up better with his face palm, .
I prefer to notice the lady sitting behind him, that had a knowing smirk on her face.
ultrasbm
Which is pretty much everything in the IT world
Most PC users generally aren't short of a few bob, if you have the money to build a PC which is a lot more expensive than a console, or tablet. Then I am guessing 10-15% price increase isn't going to break the bank. If this means that some people have to put off that upgrade, my heart breaks for you it really does.
“Oh no that £500 quid brand new GPU that I want to buy is now £550” Boo ruddy hoo!
Considering the huge amount of content already available to all PC gamer's, and other sources to purchase hardware through friends or auction sites, its hardly a hardship worthy of such impassioned complaints.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Shame the chips are imported!! :( :p
Whilst true, having programmed British made Inmos Transputer chips in the distant past I can kind of see why we import them :D Also the apu on a pi can't be more than a fiver, so I can afford a bit of duty on that.
realstock
Most PC users generally aren't short of a few bob, if you have the money to build a PC which is a lot more expensive than a console, or tablet. Then I am guessing 10-15% price increase isn't going to break the bank. If this means that some people have to put off that upgrade, my heart breaks for you it really does.
“Oh no that £500 quid brand new GPU that I want to buy is now £550” Boo ruddy hoo!
Considering the huge amount of content already available to all PC gamer's, and other sources to purchase hardware through friends or auction sites, its hardly a hardship worthy of such impassioned complaints.
A simple ‘you’ll be alright mate' would have sufficed.
wazzickle
A simple ‘you’ll be alright mate' would have sufficed.
lol… yeah your right… I was probably a little over the top there.
realstock
lol… yeah your right… I was probably a little over the top there.
Nah, it made for good reading :)