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Posted by Kovoet - Tue 30 Jun 2015 12:13
About time. What's worse which happened to me a couple of weeks ago. Stand at Dover and the signal in France is stronger which was 22 miles away.
Posted by Wozza63 - Tue 30 Jun 2015 12:13
Oh great, I have to pay more for my contract so that businessmen don't have to worry about paying extra whilst travelling. Why should I pay for this when I am not travelling to EU?

EU has their priorities right, as usual. Not like there is a major migrant crisis in South Europe or anything.
Posted by LSG501 - Tue 30 Jun 2015 12:26
I like the idea of eu net neutrality but I can't see it doing much if I'm honest…. it will still end up being a case of you pay us enough and it will be ‘overlooked’

and lol at this bit… ‘No content will be unfairly blocked’ yet they allow courts to block a torrent search engine like the pirate bay and other, they don't actually host any files, they're no different to Google/bing in essence which also hosts the same links in some cases. Not that I condone illegal downloads of course but torrents don't just cover illegal downloads.


As to priorities, I'm pretty sure this is likely going through a different ‘department’ to the migrant crisis in southern Europe and even Calais, oh wait the French and UK governments are dealing with that so we're doomed lol.
Posted by Saracen - Tue 30 Jun 2015 12:50
LSG501
….

and lol at this bit… ‘No content will be unfairly blocked’ yet they allow courts to block a torrent search engine like the pirate bay and other, they don't actually host any files, they're no different to Google/bing in essence which also hosts the same links in some cases. Not that I condone illegal downloads of course but torrents don't just cover illegal downloads.

….
No, torrents aren't all illegal content, but the analysis done for the court showed, IIRC, that a percentage in the high 90%s were, for Pirate Bay.

But this thread isn't about torrents, and certainly isn't about Pirate Bay.
Posted by Saracen - Tue 30 Jun 2015 13:06
What intrigued me in that article was this bit ….

…. The EU has been working to decrease roaming charges within the Europe for a decade and says that prices for roaming calls, SMS and data have fallen by 80 per cent since 2007 thanks to its efforts.
Are they suggesting that market conditions, competitiveness, the advent of smartphones and ever-increasing consumer uptake had nothing to do with it, but it's all the EU?

Of course, personally, I don't give a hoot. I don't use a smartphone, don't use a mobile all that much, and very rarely use roaming outside of the US, and even that, rarely. And of course, EU roaming rules don't affect US use anyway.

To be honest, they could quadrupole call/data charges and I don't care, because I don't make enough calls to care. I put £10 on my PAYG in, IIRC, 2007, and I'll have to top it up shortly. At that rate, running at about £1.50 per year, it's not something that matters to me. I really only have a mobile at all so that the VERY small list of people that have the number can get me if it's urgent, or for the extremely rare call I make.

And no, I'm not a comms dinosaur. Far from it. I had a mobile phone when they were very rare, outside of business use. It's a positive choice to not be contactable by all and sundry, more or less 24/7.
Posted by qasdfdsaq - Tue 30 Jun 2015 13:30
Saracen
Are they suggesting that market conditions, competitiveness, the advent of smartphones and ever-increasing consumer uptake had nothing to do with it, but it's all the EU?
Yes they are, and they'd be right.

Back in 2007, EU roaming cost 70p a minute, today it costs 18p. Data cost £6 a megabyte and now it costs 20p

Back in 2007, non-EU roaming (e.g. Switzerland) cost £1 a minute, today it still costs £1 a minute. Data still costs £6 a megabyte.
Posted by cheesemp - Tue 30 Jun 2015 13:48
qasdfdsaq
Saracen
Are they suggesting that market conditions, competitiveness, the advent of smartphones and ever-increasing consumer uptake had nothing to do with it, but it's all the EU?
Yes they are, and they'd be right.

Back in 2007, EU roaming cost 70p a minute, today it costs 18p. Data cost £6 a megabyte and now it costs 20p

Back in 2007, non-EU roaming (e.g. Switzerland) cost £1 a minute, today it still costs £1 a minute. Data still costs £6 a megabyte.

The EU forced price caps on mobile roaming costs. Without that it would be just like switzerland as point out above. After all why would they cut costs when they can keep raking in a fortune…
Posted by crossy - Tue 30 Jun 2015 14:10
Wozza365
Oh great, I have to pay more for my contract so that businessmen don't have to worry about paying extra whilst travelling. Why should I pay for this when I am not travelling to EU? EU has their priorities right, as usual. Not like there is a major migrant crisis in South Europe or anything.
Sorry but that's a fatuous thing to say - EU has multiple departments so it's more than capable of multi-tasking. And I'd love to how you figure that it's just “businessmen” that'd welcome the end to roaming charges - holiday makers for one, I'm sure, would really appreciate being able to Facebook etc without having to pay an arm and a leg for it. Also, as Kovoet points out, there's unfortunates in the UK where their phone roams to a non-UK tower - nice for them not to be penalised.
Don't believe me? Then check out the articles about the upswing in Three customer numbers - them, of course, having that roaming deal. Although their roaming deal also covers the US - which is very useful.
cheesemp
The EU forced price caps on mobile roaming costs. Without that it would be just like switzerland as point out above. After all why would they cut costs when they can keep raking in a fortune…
Quite true, and especially now that the UK government is so “business friendly” (their words not mine). Maybe I'm just being a leftie bigot but it seems to me that my telecoms costs have gone up appreciably since 2010.

Personally I can't see any real downside to this announcement, my main worry being that HMG will find some way to deliver UK laws that override this "in the interests of public safety“ (also known as the ”won't someone think of the children" defence)
Posted by Saracen - Tue 30 Jun 2015 14:51
qasdfdsaq
Yes they are, and they'd be right.

Back in 2007, EU roaming cost 70p a minute, today it costs 18p. Data cost £6 a megabyte and now it costs 20p

Back in 2007, non-EU roaming (e.g. Switzerland) cost £1 a minute, today it still costs £1 a minute. Data still costs £6 a megabyte.
I wasn't querying the changes in costs, but WHY the costs had changed.

If it's all down to the EU, then fair enough. But how can we possibly know that?

Just like, in the arguments over roaming charges, theee are a variety of different pressures, from different special interests. Some want costs down, to increase their market share, others want costs maintained to protect revenue. Yet others, largely eastern europe, currently have low domestic rates which may have to actually rise in order to achieve uniformity.

So what it actually amounts to is a humongous negotiation, resulting in cross-subdidisation from one country to another, or one business service to another, to achieve uniform rates.

And while the EU can oversee arguments, it can't possibly know what market forces would have done anyway, in the absence of EU interference. So, it's maybe good for users, maybe not. Maybe good for some users, bad for others.

Consider this.

A common pro-EU argument is that the EU has resulted in 70 years of peace in Europe, and that argument depends on there having been 70 years of peace in Europe, and an EU. But there is no evidence of a causal link between the two. We might equally argue that 70 years of peace cause the EU.

Suppose the actual cause of 70 years of peace was the soul-scarring experience of two world wars, of economic devastation on both sides, of a lack of desire for round three, of too much effort going into rebuilding to worry about wars, of slow but growing joint economic prosperity, and the the perceived existential threat of a common external enemy, Soviet-style communism, making us stronger acting in harmony than fighting each other. And the EU happened because of that, and is therefore the effect, not the cause.

Similarly, common commercial objectives may have resulted in those same changes, or competition may have led to further, deeper, faster cost-cutting, but for EU interference. Or not. We don't, and cannot, know.

If A happens, then B happens, it is NOT proof that A caused B, or that absent interference, C wouldn't have happened.
Posted by Corky34 - Wed 01 Jul 2015 06:14
If what they propose for net neutrality are considered strong I would hate to see what weak rules would look like.
They've failed to make a distinction between “specialised services” and the public internet, they say for something to be considered a “specialised service” (read fast lane) it needs be nothing more than “necessary” and the defines “necessary” so broadly that anything that is not a “general prioritisation” fits into it.

They fail to define what a “legal obligation” for blocking/filtering might be, the definition is so badly drafted that it could cover activities that are not legal obligations, basically the unelected European Council have all but destroyed the Net Neutrality legislation put before them by our elected MEPs, they've made it less clear and more ambiguous.
Posted by crossy - Wed 01 Jul 2015 11:28
Saracen
I wasn't querying the changes in costs, but WHY the costs had changed.
If it's all down to the EU, then fair enough. But how can we possibly know that?
Personally while I'd agree that the EU's “diktats” have had a major (beneficial) effect, I think it also naive to assume that they were the only driver. But it's in the nature of politicians to try and claim any credit going…
Saracen
Similarly, common commercial objectives may have resulted in those same changes, or competition may have led to further, deeper, faster cost-cutting, but for EU interference. Or not. We don't, and cannot, know.
“May” being the operative word. Pardon me for assuming that economic inertia would have prevented anything like the cost cutting that's going on as detailed in this article. I remember well the screams of horror/anguish/outrage from the teleco's (Vodafone especially) about how they were being asked to operate their EU businesses at a loss because of the “unwarranted political interference”.

As far as my (jaundiced) eye can see the only time that we as consumers see cuts in the costs of mobile telephony driven by the industry is when one, (or more), of the companies concerned decide that they want to build their customer base at the expense of the others. And I can understand their desire to maximise their profits - a desire that goes directly against offering the punters a cut in costs.

The other thing, of course, is that the choice on offer wrt companies seems to be shrinking - with more and more either merging (O3) or getting out of the market. So I'm not seeing a heck of a lot of these “market forces” that the right-wing pundits would have us believe is going on. The big players especially seem to to be thinking “I'm all right Jack”, and as a result I'm not seeing a lot of innovation going on. And yes, I know there's isolated examples - Three's roaming deals, GiffGaff, Virgin's rolling contracts.
Posted by Tommy88 - Tue 05 Jan 2016 11:17
ChatSim has already abolished roaming charges. It lets you chat free of charge and without limits wherever you are for only €10 a year. For people who travel often around the world I think it's the cheapest way to stay connected everywhere. Have you ever tried it?
Posted by qasdfdsaq - Tue 12 Jan 2016 11:18
Seems like an interesting concept, though rather deceptive pricing. €10 a year, when it really costs €30 to €40 to get it…
Posted by Tommy88 - Wed 20 Jan 2016 09:54
The initial cost is €10 for the sim card plus €10 for the annual fee that includes unlimited text messages and emoji for a year. Then if you don't want to add a multimedia recharge, the ChatSim chat plan costs only €10 a year and you can text without limits from everywhere
Posted by qasdfdsaq - Mon 25 Jan 2016 13:41
The day we have free global teleportation that may be true.

Until then there's at least another €7.50-15 euros for postage.
Posted by qasdfdsaq - Mon 25 Jan 2016 13:42
The day we have free global teleportation that may be true.

Until then there's at least another €7.50 for postage, up to €15 if you want it in a sensible time.
Posted by peterb - Mon 25 Jan 2016 14:29
WhatsApp allows that already, with changing SIM cards.

In fact apps like that have shifted the value to a mobile service operator away from text and voice call charges towards the costs of data packages. It's not uncommon to find packages with unlimited texts and/or unlimited calls. (With some restrictions on numbers called)
Posted by Saracen - Mon 25 Jan 2016 15:38
crossy
….

“May” being the operative word. Pardon me for assuming that economic inertia would have prevented anything like the cost cutting that's going on as detailed in this article. I remember well the screams of horror/anguish/outrage from the teleco's (Vodafone especially) about how they were being asked to operate their EU businesses at a loss because of the “unwarranted political interference”.

….
Apologies for the delay in answering, but as the thread's been resurrected anyway, here goes ….

The “may” was exactly my point. See my original point ….

Saracen
What intrigued me in that article was this bit …

…. The EU has been working to decrease roaming charges within the Europe for a decade and says that prices for roaming calls, SMS and data have fallen by 80 per cent since 2007 thanks to its efforts.

Are they suggesting that market conditions, competitiveness, the advent of smartphones and ever-increasing consumer uptake had nothing to do with it, but it's all the EU?
It was that bland assertion that the drop was entirely and solely due to EU efforts that I queried.

What we have here is almost a perfect case study for an economics class in how oligopoly power can come unstuck. If a small group of suppliers consider it, without explicit agreement because that would be illegal resale price maintenance, to be in their mutually vested interest to cut prices, then prices won't be cut. BUT …. all it needs is either for just ONE of them, or a serious new entrant, to decide to expand it's market share by a price cut and price elasticity is likely to force others to match it. Or exceed it to win back lost share. It is certainly the case for largely homogenous “commodity” goods and services. If you're a premim brand, maybe a Rolex, or a hot fashion label, or maybe Apple, etc. you can resist that because of consumer stickiness and inertia due to brand loyalty. But if it's a service (or product) largely invisible to consumers, then if companies A to D are charging £30/month, and company E comes along at £20 per month, a proportion and perhaps quite a large proportion will cut and switch.


The £30 price holds only if none of the four break ranks and no new entrants appear UNLESS the costs of providing the service are such that price cuts significant enough to overcome inertia aren't viable. But if that were the case, and the EU came along and artificially capped prices at a significantly, the existing suppliers would all either go bust or drop out of a loss-making business.

My point is …did the EU price cap have an impact? Yeah, very likely.

But was it, in an of itself, responsible for that claimed 80% “due to it's efforts”? Like hell it was.

It's as daft as the assertion that the EU prevented war in Europe, at least within the EU, all by itself, that being an assertion that I think it utterly fatuous in the face of other reasons for it's absence, but in any event, utterly unproveable.

I wouldn't argue that the EU had no impact on either the lack of war in Europe or phone charges, but claiming sole credit for either, while paying no credit to the effect of other factors, is entirely unsupportable.

That is to say, it is for he (or she) making such claims to support the basis for them. It's not like gravity, where a vast body of repeatable experiments all support theories (and I stress, theories) of cause, because we only have one history, one timeline, to go on. Repeat the last 50 years, 100 times or more, varying various factors and produce repeatable results demonstrating that it was ONLY the EU causing these results, and they'll have a case.

Until then, it's the EU claiming responsibility for things they have no way of knowing, or even testing, and relying on a gullible public not noticing or understanding the absence of any valid basis for linking effect to their claimed cause.

Pardon me for assuming …
Certainly my son. 10 Hail Mary's and three self-flagellation sessions.
:D
Posted by qasdfdsaq - Mon 01 Feb 2016 16:22
Saracen
BUT …. all it needs is either for just ONE of them, or a serious new entrant, to decide to expand it's market share by a price cut and price elasticity is likely to force others to match it. Or exceed it to win back lost share. It is certainly the case for largely homogenous “commodity” goods and services. If you're a premim brand, maybe a Rolex, or a hot fashion label, or maybe Apple, etc. you can resist that because of consumer stickiness and inertia due to brand loyalty. But if it's a service (or product) largely invisible to consumers, then if companies A to D are charging £30/month, and company E comes along at £20 per month, a proportion and perhaps quite a large proportion will cut and switch.

I would posit the presence of several small and/or new players in the UK market for the past decade, yet none of the major operators cutting prices to anywhere near close to matching, would prove that demonstrably false. Indeed, all such new and cheap players remain smaller, and acquiring customers slower, often to the point they have to increase their prices to “not look cheap”.
Posted by Tekkul88 - Wed 03 Feb 2016 20:37
Well even if it's not technically free it's definitely an improvement!