I'd say it's somewhat insane to see both GAME and HMV enter administration within 6 months of each other.. but both companies enjoyed selling products at stupidly high prices, especially seeing how its far far easier getting most of the products cheaper elsewhere online..
Bad news in general that another big UK employer and tax payer has gone. All we are left with is Amazon who dont pay corporate tax in the UK and have little to no serious competition left in the UK (especially with Play turning itself into just another ebay). That means now that Amazon have corned the market what is to stop them raising prices and taking the UK consumer for everything they've got?
Pretty soon the only thing left on the british high street will be coffee shops, charity shops and a Gregg's!
P.S: Im not supporting HMV's pricing btw it was too high compared to the likes of amazon and they wouldnt even price match to their own website which was rubbish.
Absolutely disgusting, they have had the money for the vouchers, they should still honour them rather than keep the cash for themselves. Especially just after xmas as well.
Kanoe
Bad news in general that another big UK employer and tax payer has gone. All we are left with is Amazon who dont pay corporate tax in the UK and have little to no serious competition left in the UK (especially with Play turning itself into just another ebay). That means now that Amazon have corned the market what is to stop them raising prices and taking the UK consumer for everything they've got?
Pretty soon the only thing left on the british high street will be coffee shops, charity shops and a Gregg's!
P.S: Im not supporting HMV's pricing btw it was too high compared to the likes of amazon and they wouldnt even price match to their own website which was rubbish.
that's because they're the only ones who can actually make a profit…
IMO bricks and mortar for this kind of business is two generations out of date. It's fate was sealed by online sellers such as Amazon a long time ago. In turn they (at least for selling physical CDs/games/DVDs) are superceded by download* - it just takes some time for the full message to filter through sometimes.
* And Amazon for example know this - see their AutoRIP or whatever it's called announcement.
I just hope their is sufficient competition in the download space… We know Valve don't like the current look of it for example!
Bought a new tv just before christmas, of the smart variety. I no longer need a dvd player as I can stream what I want easily with just as good quality from either Netflix or Lovefilm. DVD's need to be about £5 tops now to compete
Supermarkets are also big, and possibly more immediate competition, than e-tailers. They often sell media far cheaper than the likes of HMV and have the advantage of immediate acquisition, unlike Amazon who aren't exactly quick at delivery,
Jonj1611
Absolutely disgusting, they have had the money for the vouchers, they should still honour them rather than keep the cash for themselves. Especially just after xmas as well.
because holders of vouchers are considered debtors, and they are non preferential debtors, once in adminstration they have to treat all debtors the same so can't allow voucher owners to cash in debts whilst other debtors can't. this is something the government could look at to create a law to protect people better from companies going into administration. so if you have vouchers, or have paid a deposit on a sofa, or paid in full for a suit to be made, and the company goes into administration before you get your goods, consumers are covered (businesses would be handled seperately), so for example vouchers are ringfenced or have to be insured in some way that can't be ended/cancelled, so the company can't stop paying for cover and the vouchers aren't covered. so this forms some additional consumer rights such as an amendment to SOGA. in light of a number of companies going bust, and farepack a few years ago, consumers should have some better cover in place
Spectoor
but both companies enjoyed selling products at stupidly high prices.
that's one way to look upon it, but the other is that some competitors enjoyed selling products at stupidly low prices that other companies that had higher costs, such as high street rents/rates and paying full VAT and/or corporation tax couldn't compete with. online stores had the VAT and corporation tax savings on top of lower rents/rates and able to cover an entire country or even countries from a single location, or a few key locations covering wide areas, and supermarkets could sell items at cost price as a loss leader to simultanously bring in custom and screw the competition
i've seen a similar thing happen in other markets, such as in the 90s when companies started selling jeans at £15 a pair when typically they sold for £30 and 501s were £40-45. so that saturated the market with cheap jeans, put a lot of smaller companies out of business, affected profit margins of other big companies, and the jeans market literally died a few months later (remember people wearing cargo pants and anything other than jeans to avoid the jeremy clarkson look - it took years for the denim business to recover) and those fly by night companies went bust. it might be great for some people for a period, but it usually ends up a problem in the long run, and people losing jobs in industries that sometimes never fully recover. the online sales and downloading of content is going to continue to impact on all sorts of retail areas, which will put people out of jobs, not only from the companies going bust, but the knock on effect of a loss of business by suppliers to those businesses, in some cases sending those companies bankrupt themselves, either through loss of business or because one company owes them a debt that's not repaid, forcing them to close down, and things can snowball from there. property companies lose income, councils lose rates, and with large companies that trade stocks, people can lose money through investments which can affect the pensions of people too
Unique
that's one way to look upon it, but the other is that some competitors enjoyed selling products at stupidly low prices that other companies that had higher costs, such as high street rents/rates and paying full VAT and/or corporation tax couldn't compete with. online stores had the VAT and corporation tax savings on top of lower rents/rates and able to cover an entire country or even countries from a single location, or a few key locations covering wide areas, and supermarkets could sell items at cost price as a loss leader to simultanously bring in custom and screw the competition
i've seen a similar thing happen in other markets, such as in the 90s when companies started selling jeans at £15 a pair when typically they sold for £30 and 501s were £40-45. so that saturated the market with cheap jeans, put a lot of smaller companies out of business, affected profit margins of other big companies, and the jeans market literally died a few months later (remember people wearing cargo pants and anything other than jeans to avoid the jeremy clarkson look - it took years for the denim business to recover) and those fly by night companies went bust. it might be great for some people for a period, but it usually ends up a problem in the long run, and people losing jobs in industries that sometimes never fully recover. the online sales and downloading of content is going to continue to impact on all sorts of retail areas, which will put people out of jobs, not only from the companies going bust, but the knock on effect of a loss of business by suppliers to those businesses, in some cases sending those companies bankrupt themselves, either through loss of business or because one company owes them a debt that's not repaid, forcing them to close down, and things can snowball from there. property companies lose income, councils lose rates, and with large companies that trade stocks, people can lose money through investments which can affect the pensions of people too
You might have an argument there, or not…
http://www.philipbeeching.com/2012/08/why-companies-fail-rise-and-fall-of-hmv.htmlIt seems arrogance, overspending and inability to see what's coming did for them…
Jonj1611
Absolutely disgusting, they have had the money for the vouchers, they should still honour them rather than keep the cash for themselves. Especially just after xmas as well.
This was explained on the BBC this morning - voucher holders are creditors of the business, so you join the list (behind HMRC and the banks of course). Problem is that by the time the “big league” creditors have had their slice, there's nothing left for us plebs.
EDIT: oops, just saw “unique” explained in more detail. Agree with what's said in that post that it's high time that these vouchers were protected under some kind of “insurance” type scheme
watercooled
Supermarkets are also big, and possibly more immediate competition, than e-tailers. They often sell media far cheaper than the likes of HMV and have the advantage of immediate acquisition, unlike Amazon who aren't exactly quick at delivery,
Aye, when you can get music/video/games from Tesco etc with your shopping at the same price (or less) as HMV/Game then the writing's on the wall. That said, I've Amazon Prime so haven't had any real issues with delivery.
I don't buy into the idea that downloading killed HMV, instead I'm going to suggest that they failed to find a niche, plus had too many stores (a la GAME). HMV increasingly seemed to focus only on what was in the charts, which meant that they were directly up against the supermarkets - who could pile ‘em up and sell ’em cheap more easily.
Oh, and HMV's “loyalty” scheme was a piece of rubbish too (
dammit, just realised I had a load of points that'll now be useless) with points that expired and an overly complex method to claim.
Indeed, I saw it on the news myself, you would think, after Game, Comet etc that the government would step in and make sure customers money is protected, I think people need confidence in purchasing, especially with the current climate. Thanks for the comments though, I do agree with what Unique and Crossy said.
Thing I found about HMV was I went in there 3 times in the last couple of weeks and found the prices to be high, and I mean top price high, and the games that people did seem to want, ie chart, they had none in stock, just yesteryears game at release price pricing :/
Jonj1611
Absolutely disgusting, they have had the money for the vouchers, they should still honour them rather than keep the cash for themselves. Especially just after xmas as well.
Although I agree with this statement 100% I'm at a loss as to why anybody would buy vouchers from a company that it has been well reported is in trouble.
I think people who were given them as xmas presents were probably bought well in advance of xmas and it wasn't that well reported on the general news which I am guessing a lot of people buying vouchers would be watching. Also once you buy vouchers you can't take them back for a refund :/
People still buy vouchers as they don't expect a firm to get into trouble after the Christmas rush
3dcandy
People still buy vouchers as they don't expect a firm to get into trouble after the Christmas rush
No, people buy vouchers because they are stupid.
Vouchers are as vulgar as cash, show as little thought as cash, and have credit risk attached.
TheAnimus
No, people buy vouchers because they are stupid.
Vouchers are as vulgar as cash, show as little thought as cash, and have credit risk attached.
Bit harsh, people usually do it because it shows that you have some interest in what the person likes and it looks nicer then handing over a £20 note. Thoughts of credit risk do not cross ones mind when buying birthday presents.
got to agree with the above, say your grandparents?
If you have bought your vouchers via credit/debit card, speak with your bank and they will refund it like I did with my unused GAME vouchers.
They can't refuse.
Kanoe
That means now that Amazon have corned the market what is to stop them raising prices and taking the UK consumer for everything they've got?
Of course your over looking all the supermarkets and other online retailers that sell media related products at reasonable prices. Amazon is quite often not the cheapest place to buy games, music or films if you look around.
Personally I'm happy to see the fall of HMV. It was a greedy, bloated chain. Stupid sized premium stores, way over priced products - consumers demand better value - if its from the high street or online.
Its also a wake up call for property owners who charge such high rents for retail spots. They are pricing their own customers out of business. I think the high street is in for a massive transformation over the next 10 years.
I predict we will see more older chains close this year, maybe WH Smiths will be next.
Jonj1611
Absolutely disgusting, they have had the money for the vouchers, they should still honour them rather than keep the cash for themselves. Especially just after xmas as well.
To add a little to what unique said, remember that once the administrators are in, it's they and not the HMV board, that run the company, and the administrators have a mandatory and statutory duty to follow which, essentially and a bit simplistically, is “protect creditors”, which will include staff payroll obligations (but not to necessarily continue staff jobs), the taxman, secured creditors and last and very much least, the likes of unsecured creditors.
Unless there's a good business case for why honouring vouchers is in the interests of those that called in the administrators (and acknowledging that there are different types of administration, and that courts are involved) the administrators would be in breach of their statutory duty if they just paid out.
It's hard on consumers with a few quid in vouchers to lose, but believe me, it can be FAR harder on business creditors, suppliers or contractors for example, who may lose sums large enough to put a previously viable business out of business. I've seen it happen.
Unique
that's one way to look upon it, but the other is that some competitors enjoyed selling products at stupidly low prices that other companies that had higher costs, such as high street rents/rates and paying full VAT and/or corporation tax couldn't compete with. online stores had the VAT and corporation tax savings on top of lower rents/rates and able to cover an entire country or even countries from a single location, or a few key locations covering wide areas, and supermarkets could sell items at cost price as a loss leader to simultanously bring in custom and screw the competition
the online sales and downloading of content is going to continue to impact on all sorts of retail areas, which will put people out of jobs, not only from the companies going bust, but the knock on effect of a loss of business by suppliers to those businesses, in some cases sending those companies bankrupt themselves, either through loss of business or because one company owes them a debt that's not repaid, forcing them to close down, and things can snowball from there. property companies lose income, councils lose rates, and with large companies that trade stocks, people can lose money through investments which can affect the pensions of people too
True, but this is mostly due to the fact the internet and home computing has become such a common thing, brick and mortar have extra running costs which either reduce the profit margins (due to trying to remain competitive with those that can afford to lower the price) or force them to keep prices higher than people are willing to pay.
On the mention of jobs, i think its a shame that a lot of the people that lose jobs from retail positions aren't immediately able to go into customer service jobs for online stores, the skill-sets cross-over a bit, but not enough to guarantee easy access to essentially the job market shift from retail to IT.
Damnit, now i want to research the reduction in retail positions in brick and mortar stores for every-day items and cheper retail stores (electronics, clothing etc, not cars or expensive items) and see if the respective online stores in those same areas have grown in proportion with job the loss of retail positions available.
I want the answer, but i'm not going to put the several dozen hours needed to find it out :P
I think this is all part of a dramatic and utterly inevitable restructuring of the high street, as a direct result of hugely increased levels of information to consumers, and the options open to them.
If you are a retailer, then the options for you are to adapt or die, though what “adapt” means varies. On the one hand, we have the pound shops, and on the other, John Lewis Group. Pound shops have boomed by offering prices which at least appear to be attractive (though appearances can sometimes be misleading, and deliberately so in my opinion), on goods by the nature of which online shopping is not terribly attractive. On the other hand, John Lewis, though facing challenges and having to somewhat de-staff, succeeded by targetting a different demographic for whom the lowest possible price is not the prime driver, but for whom quality and customer service are hugely important. And, JL has worked very hard indeed to integrate high street and online, and to leverage each with the strengths of the other. That involves some pretty substantial behind-the-scenes changes, and no small infrastructure commitment, and changes to warehousing and systems, to allow, for instance, ordering items online and having them delivered to your local Waitrose for collection, offering a combination of internet shopping, and personal high street collection.
Retailers, depending on their market sector, have to work out ways to adapt, or die. HMV seem to gave failed to notice they needed to adapt, much less work out how to do it, at least, not until it was too late and the rot was terminal.
Question is …. who next?
Unique
because holders of vouchers are considered debtors, and they are non preferential debtors, once in adminstration they have to treat all debtors the same so can't allow voucher owners to cash in debts whilst other debtors can't.
Creditors, not debtors. and creditors are paid/protected, in a set order. Consumers are unsecured, so last in line so that a wound up company pays off secured creditors first, along with whatever other obligations they have.
Suragh
If you have bought your vouchers via credit/debit card, speak with your bank and they will refund it like I did with my unused GAME vouchers.
They can't refuse.
I might be wrong, but isnt the minimum requirement that its a transaction over £100 on a credit card?
Anything else is just good will from the bank, and not mandatory, at least as I understood it.
BobF64
….
I might be wrong, but isnt the minimum requirement that its a transaction over £100 on a credit card?
Anything else is just good will from the bank, and not mandatory, at least as I understood it.
Yup, basically. Section 75, Consumer Credit Act. Transactions between £100 and £30,000 involving credit, are covered …. so it doesn't cover debit cards.
Some debit cards offer a degree of cover, but as you say, at the bank's discretion, not as an obligation under consumer credit law. There are also another wrinkle or two in that s.76 cover, but that's the basic provision.
For what I wanted HMV was never that expensive, almost every time I go to my local shopping centre I go into HMV to have a look at some old DVDs, and I always manage to find a good looking DVD for £3, which is a bargain, but other than that, the prices are nothing special at all, I don't like buying digital games and music, id rather buy the real thing, although games I have little choice now as its usually much cheaper for me to buy from steam
All vouchers nullified? You mean you stole money from people who, in good faith, paid for their vouchers, right?
aidanjt
All vouchers nullified? You mean you stole money from people who, in good faith, paid for their vouchers, right?
No, people gave them money, which would only be redemable with them, and they have gone in to administration.
No matter which way you look at it, people have given them money and gotten nothing out of it.
Well yes, but it's totally normal in this sort of situation. Not that I'd be happy if I had anything stored on a card with them!
A voucher is a debt owed by HMV to you, the same as they have debts to other creditors. When they go into administration, vouchers are just another debt that HMV owes, one very, very far down the scale!
As mentioned, vouchers are a sucky present!
TheAnimus
No, people gave them money, which would only be redemable with them, and they have gone in to administration.
I think thats what people always miss, the company is still trading,
but its only in name, its being run by someone else, the administrators, who you havent given any money to.
Matsy
No matter which way you look at it, people have given them money and gotten nothing out of it.
But a
lot of other people will have.
Hell the taxpayer might even loose out if they've lost enough.
A company going in to administration is just bad news all round for anyone connected with that firm.
I'm going to tell a story, that I figured I shouldn't but it might help illustrate.
My company did some work for someone, I made a bad call, I knew that had problems but thought the worst might have been over. Things took a turn for the worse. The owner of the other firm said to me politely that he didn't not know what to do, my bill was going to push him over the edge, he simply didn't have the cash flow. I was able to see from a simple land registry search he had sold his house already to provide capital. In the end I decided to take one on the chin. I took about 10% of the money owed and wrote down the loss, thankfully software sometimes has high margins. That 10% would have been more than I would ever have received if I had forced matters. He could also have easily turned round and said go fish, wait your place in turn. HMRC would have been waaay ahead. Instead he gave me what would have covered my core expenses almost, whilst allowing him one more payroll. The company of course did not survive much longer.
Things going bad, are always bad. Sometimes someone despirately clinging on to hope is nothing more than human nature. They are not criminals.
Some people who've no experience in business, often it appears the real world love to be a loud mouthed “anti-corperationist”. Singling out Gift Vouchers makes this understandable to the average man on the street. They however will likely bear the costs in other ways.
BobF64
Creditors, not debtors. and creditors are paid/protected, in a set order. Consumers are unsecured, so last in line so that a wound up company pays off secured creditors first, along with whatever other obligations they have.
.
yes creditors not debtors of course!
Spectoor
True, but this is mostly due to the fact the internet and home computing has become such a common thing, brick and mortar have extra running costs which either reduce the profit margins (due to trying to remain competitive with those that can afford to lower the price) or force them to keep prices higher than people are willing to pay.
On the mention of jobs, i think its a shame that a lot of the people that lose jobs from retail positions aren't immediately able to go into customer service jobs for online stores, the skill-sets cross-over a bit, but not enough to guarantee easy access to essentially the job market shift from retail to IT.
Damnit, now i want to research the reduction in retail positions in brick and mortar stores for every-day items and cheper retail stores (electronics, clothing etc, not cars or expensive items) and see if the respective online stores in those same areas have grown in proportion with job the loss of retail positions available.
I want the answer, but i'm not going to put the several dozen hours needed to find it out :P
part of the problem is perhaps most retail workers are pretty much unskilled workers. they may be experienced in retail, but with comet and jessops going very recently on top of hmv, and on top of the other closures in the past few months like woolworths etc, literally thousands of retail workers losing jobs at once is going to make it hard for them to get other suitable jobs. of course the same can also happen for skilled workers. close down a mine and lots of skilled workers have nowhere else to go as mines don't just open up often
and it's taxpayers pockets that have to cover a lot of the costs of these closures, from lack of rates to local governments to unemployment benefits and even redundancy payments if the company can't pay. that side of things puts issues of “overpriced” goods and bad customer service into perspective
Smudger
You might have an argument there, or not…
http://www.philipbeeching.com/2012/08/why-companies-fail-rise-and-fall-of-hmv.html
It seems arrogance, overspending and inability to see what's coming did for them…
well there really is a lot of reasons why they've ended up in trouble, from hit by piracy and internet sales and VAT loopholes, corporation tax loopholes and then everything else on top. with that double or triple blow it's understandable to some degree that they would struggle to manage it. without knowing a lot more about internal management it's hard to comment accurately on it. i'm sure like many companies they will have made mistakes but also tried their best at the same time
TheAnimus
No, people gave them money, which would only be redemable with them, and they have gone in to administration.
Irrelevant, people paid for a cash-equivalent token only usable in their stores, and did so in good faith. HMV just ignored their value despite having not been redeemed, and so cheated people out of their money. Nevermind that most of them would have been included in Christmas cards and whatnot as gifts, so they ruined many a person's Christmas on top of theft.
Kanoe
Bad news in general that another big UK employer and tax payer has gone. All we are left with is Amazon who dont pay corporate tax in the UK and have little to no serious competition left in the UK (especially with Play turning itself into just another ebay). That means now that Amazon have corned the market what is to stop them raising prices and taking the UK consumer for everything they've got?
Pretty soon the only thing left on the british high street will be coffee shops, charity shops and a Gregg's!
P.S: Im not supporting HMV's pricing btw it was too high compared to the likes of amazon and they wouldnt even price match to their own website which was rubbish.
i disagree with the coffee places as you can uy a decent coffee machine from “amazon” lol
Next that will go will be pc world/currys
aidanjt
Irrelevant, people paid for a cash-equivalent token only usable in their stores, and did so in good faith. HMV just ignored their value despite having not been redeemed, and so cheated people out of their money. Nevermind that most of them would have been included in Christmas cards and whatnot as gifts, so they ruined many a person's Christmas on top of theft.
It's as if you just can't grasp the idea of administration.
Nothing has been ignored, the company that made the agreement about that is gnoe, its dead, its pushing up the daisies…..
Unique
well there really is a lot of reasons why they've ended up in trouble, from hit by piracy and internet sales and VAT loopholes, corporation tax loopholes and then everything else on top. with that double or triple blow it's understandable to some degree that they would struggle to manage it. without knowing a lot more about internal management it's hard to comment accurately on it. i'm sure like many companies they will have made mistakes but also tried their best at the same time
People were suggesting very early on, before Amazon was the behemoth it is now, that they should go into online sales. The management wilfully ignored them, as they ‘knew best’. That's arrogance to me. If you look at the comments on the article, lots of staff are saying they also suggested online presence, and were rebuffed. HMV were in a position to be
the online supplier of CDs, DVDs and video games, already being the biggest bricks and mortar supplier. They sat on their 'arrises, assuming that they could maintain the status quo. They were wrong. They were on the gravy train and thought it would last forever.
Brewster0101
I predict we will see more older chains close this year, maybe WH Smiths will be next.
j.o.s.h.1408;2786549
Next that will go will be pc world/currys
Can't see either of these coming to pass, what I think we might see is places with PCW and Currys stores losing one or the other to save retail space costs.
No if I had to point at future closures then I'm going to nominate GAME, Waterstones or Thorntons.
j.o.s.h.1408;2786549
i disagree with the coffee places as you can uy a decent coffee machine from “amazon” lol
Bought mine from Rombouts UK - don't like the output of these Nespresso machines as any I've tried always seem to have a plasticy after taste. Just wished there was a common format pod that lots of coffee manufacturer would use. (Yes, I know, I'm naive)
crossy
Bought mine from Rombouts UK - don't like the output of these Nespresso machines as any I've tried always seem to have a plasticy after taste. Just wished there was a common format pod that lots of coffee manufacturer would use. (Yes, I know, I'm naive)
There is - ESE. It's like a teabag, but for coffee. There's a 3rd fitting that goes in the handle thing, so you get single, double or ESE. Easy as.
http://www.gallacoffee.co.uk/coffee-knowledge/what-is-an-ese-coffee-pod.html
TheAnimus
It's as if you just can't grasp the idea of administration.
Nothing has been ignored, the company that made the agreement about that is gnoe, its dead, its pushing up the daisies…..
No it isn't. It is in administration. Very unlikely but in theory it could come out the other side. However you are right in that the company that is/was HMV aren't calling the shots any more so it is unfair to slag them off for not honouring the vouchers - that is up to the the administrators to decide.
Smudger
People were suggesting very early on, before Amazon was the behemoth it is now, that they should go into online sales. The management wilfully ignored them, as they ‘knew best’. That's arrogance to me. If you look at the comments on the article, lots of staff are saying they also suggested online presence, and were rebuffed. HMV were in a position to be the online supplier of CDs, DVDs and video games, already being the biggest bricks and mortar supplier. They sat on their 'arrises, assuming that they could maintain the status quo. They were wrong. They were on the gravy train and thought it would last forever.
i don't know myself why they didn't do something bigger sooner, and i don't mean the download market, but the online one. they were so late to the game in setting up an online store, i'm not sure when it started, but around the turn of the millenium for example you had cdwow, play and amazon offering cd's and dvd's way cheaper than hmv. at the same time p2p was picking up with napster and earlier pre torrent programs. of course in the UK broadband wasn't commonplace back then, and even pc's in homes weren't that common. so at the time you had a few early adopters that got into p2p and started downloading for free, and stopped buying cds at least, and those who did want to buy as p2p took too long or they didn't have computers at home to do so, would buy online. and back in the early days you could place orders by phone to play. so hmv were hit by both sides. itunes wasn't out for another couple of years so there was no legal download market. even when itunes started, it would have been difficult for hmv to try and compete as they didn't have the same type of capital and power as apple, and perhaps record companies would have wanted to stick with one download service to find out how it went first. as itunes took off, home pc's took off and i heard a number of people in the early to mid 00's saying they bought pc's and got broadband simply to download music for free. a £200 computer let them do that and about £20 a month ISP. cheaper than buying cd's. by that time hmv was a dead man walking. i'm surprised they managed for so long.
to some degree the record companies, which are now not really really companies but huge global corporations that are an umbrella to many different things from hardware to movies and television and music, were late to the game too, and let piracy get a huge grip as there were no legal alternatives, it was easy to do, no-one was getting caught, and with tens or hundreds of millions of people doing it, it must have been alright surely? so by the time legal options were available, people were used to not paying and many stuck to it
but then think back 120 years ago. no record industry. musicians played music and got paid directly. no middle men making money, no retailers, distributers, managers. maybe one day it will go back to something like that with artists selling music direct via some ebay/itunes option. but then how are you going to find out about new artists? who is going to pay for music videos? maybe instead of a few artists making millions you will have millions of artists making thousands
And the next company to go on the High Street is….drum Roll please!
Blockbuster!!!
I know a lot of people are blaming the internet but I think the Government has to take the blame here as well, you give people less money to spend while prices are still going up and of course people are going to be spending less, I know its not a luxury but just look at the places closing down, electrical shops, entertainment and dvd rental, all of them those little extra things you may buy yourself.
Jonj1611
I know a lot of people are blaming the internet but I think the Government has to take the blame here as well, you give people less money to spend while prices are still going up and of course people are going to be spending less, I know its not a luxury but just look at the places closing down, electrical shops, entertainment and dvd rental, all of them those little extra things you may buy yourself.
Yes if only the government paid people more money we wouldn't have any of these problems!
We should give teachers £100k a year and a unicorn each, everyone knows unicorn hair wards off inflation.
I wasn't actually referring to the Government paying people directly.
TheAnimus
It's as if you just can't grasp the idea of administration.
Nothing has been ignored, the company that made the agreement about that is gnoe, its dead, its pushing up the daisies…..
No it isn't, the trademarks are still the property of the company, it still has staff, it's still trading under those trademarks, it still retains all its assets and the administrators are looking for someone to buy the company (you can't sell something which doesn't exist). Only the management of the company has been transferred to administrative receivers, and has special legal status regarding its commitments, the administrators made the decision on behalf of the company, and the company is, under the administrators, swindling people out of their money by refusing to honour their agreement to exchange the purchased vouchers for goods (which they were selling throughout the Christmas period), all the while they're still selling goods.
Can you imagine if a central bank did a similar thing with their currency? People would cry “thieves! swindlers! conmen!”, and they'd be right, because they'd be stuck with a debt burden in exchange for worthless transaction tokens. And is morally and ethically bankrupt.
Jonj1611
I know a lot of people are blaming the internet but I think the Government has to take the blame here as well, you give people less money to spend while prices are still going up and of course people are going to be spending less, I know its not a luxury but just look at the places closing down, electrical shops, entertainment and dvd rental, all of them those little extra things you may buy yourself.
Both these have gone because of the internet…
aidanjt
and the company is, under the administrators, swindling people out of their money by refusing to honour their agreement to exchange the purchased vouchers for goods
Because the obligation was with the now defunct management.
aidanjt
Can you imagine if a central bank did a similar thing with their currency? People would cry “thieves! swindlers! conmen!”, and they'd be right, because they'd be stuck with a debt burden in exchange for worthless transaction tokens. And is morally and ethically bankrupt.
Central banks generally do that,
try and get your gold from the BoE.
As for central defaults?
Ithappens!
Anyone who bought an HMV voucher is dumb, really dumb. I thought we'd covered this after the collapse of that “christmass savings, that you can only spend via us” company.
Would voucher holders prefer that the company just disappear, so they feel like they are not “swindled” from their voucher? What about the people who've provided services in good faith, who won't be paid? Are they too swindled?
This attutide is typical of someone who's never done something, tell me have you ever run a company? Ever bootstrapped an idea? 9 out of 10 fail they say you know.
Complaining about the vouchers is silly. Little timmy not being able to buy the sex in the city boxset isn't going to hurt anyone signficantly. You might find there are plenty of suppliers who won't be paid, how many contract cleaners might now find themselves without pay for the time worked. How many suppliers of services, goods that have been consumed will be loosing out.
For example when Woolworths when under (were you leading the charge about vouchers then?) they brought the formally known as Virgin Megastores down with them.
aidanjt
No it isn't, the trademarks are still the property of the company, it still has staff, it's still trading under those trademarks, it still retains all its assets and the administrators are looking for someone to buy the company (you can't sell something which doesn't exist). Only the management of the company has been transferred to administrative receivers, and has special legal status regarding its commitments, the administrators made the decision on behalf of the company, and the company is, under the administrators, swindling people out of their money by refusing to honour their agreement to exchange the purchased vouchers for goods (which they were selling throughout the Christmas period), all the while they're still selling goods.
Can you imagine if a central bank did a similar thing with their currency? People would cry “thieves! swindlers! conmen!”, and they'd be right, because they'd be stuck with a debt burden in exchange for worthless transaction tokens. And is morally and ethically bankrupt.
Central banks have and will do something similiar - they devalue currency, meaning that bank notes you were given previously are either worthless or worth less than they were. The administrators are just doing their job, simple as. If you want to blame anybody, try, and I mean try and blame the legislation…and that will get you diddly. Oh and I really hope you bank with Barclays, as so far in the last 18 months they have been found infringing customers rights several times, including manipulating the LIBOR rates which is how banks transfer money between them. That has gained them the notorious reputation of getting the highest fine of any UK based company in history. Oh, and the previous lucky recipient of that honour was..yes Barclays
Jonj1611
I wasn't actually referring to the Government paying people directly.
So your saying the government should tax people less?
I'm a beliver in abolishing the tax credit system, the idea of taking money away to give it back sickens me, however, I don't think anyone could really say that axing the 50p tax would save HMV. Same goes with increasing the personal allowance.
These have put money in to the hands of the consumer, well thats the tagline, but no one would have been spending it at HMV or Jessops or Blockbuster. Because simply their business models are outmoded.
People don't pay for discovery, 8 years ago, if I was using my ‘smartphone’ via GPRS to check the price of something against amazon, it didn't matter, no one did it. The shop would still be rewarded for helping someone discover and decide they want something. Now adays everyone does it. That hurts them, a lot. Combined with a popular media thing of telling us how poor we are, people feel they need to be frugal, that makes them harder to sell too.
Look at the shift on the highstreet, pound shops are booming, but so is Waitrose. People are willing to pay a premium, but only if they feel they get something. HMV didn't deliver that. If people are only buying some x-factor trash, they'll buy it at ASDA like the chavs they are, HMV didn't engage with that.
HMV had no home userbase that was spending money. For people who are happy to discover new music, Spofity/Zunepass are much more convient. If you want the CD, well then amazon is less effort than getting in to the highstreet.
So if anything the government could have done to help them it would have been at the local level, not gouging people for parking, encouraging people to come in to town, rather than traffic systems that do the opposite. Lower commercial rates for retail premesis. But I don't think any of that would have saved HMV. They consigned themselves to this fate 10 years ago.
Jonj1611
I think people who were given them as xmas presents were probably bought well in advance of xmas and it wasn't that well reported on the general news which I am guessing a lot of people buying vouchers would be watching. Also once you buy vouchers you can't take them back for a refund :/
HMV been in trouble for at least a couple of years, if I remember they were warnings given back in October and November and December…
I didn't know about it until December let alone a couple of years ago??
Perhaps you haven't, but as a retailer would you really want people to know you're struggling as confidence would rapidly dry up in this day and age. It was reported shares wise as they have been almost worthless for most of the last 6 months. I think if you'd have looked you'd have found it, I certainly didn't have to look hard, but I was predicting them going from Sept at least!
Last Christmas they warned conditions had been tough and they tried a change in strategy with more tablets, iPod docks and introduced those stands where you could plug your own headphones in to audition equipment. I also believe they renogotiated their credit terms. The previous Christmas they ended up selling off the less profitable stores…
Jonj1611
I didn't know about it until December let alone a couple of years ago??
Living under a rock?
Sorry? No I haven't thanks.
j.o.s.h.1408;2786549
Next that will go will be pc world/currys
It's possible but I think it is unlikely that we will see this in the immediate future, maybe something more medium or long term. Today Dixons who own PC World and Currys announced that they sold 1 million tablets over the Christmas season. Also recently a number of manufacturers have started investing in PC World and Currys stores to create shop in shop stands like the Apple and Google chrome stores which are staffed by Apple and Google employees and help the stores keep enough staff on the shop floor without having to cover the payroll costs themselves.
Companies like Canon and Nikon wanted to invest in Jessop's stores to try and do the same thing there but Peter Moore, the CEO at the time didn't want to play which was probably the last nail in the coffin for that chain, Peter Moore left the company in 2012 to become the CEO at another company. Can you guess which one, yep, that's right, HMV.
DSG seems to have done quite well out of Google's supply chain issues with the Play store. They have plenty of stock of the Nexus 7 in, and it seems to be the only place you can get it at the mo…
Kanoe
… P.S: Im not supporting HMV's pricing btw it was too high compared to the likes of amazon and they wouldnt even price match to their own website which was rubbish.
It was a channel islands affair, similar to Play, so different taxation rules allowed lower pricing.
Jonj1611
Absolutely disgusting, they have had the money for the vouchers, they should still honour them rather than keep the cash for themselves. Especially just after xmas as well.
Yes exactly!
That aside, Gift Vouchers always been a bugbear for me…
TheAnimus
… We should give teachers £100k a year and a unicorn each, everyone knows unicorn hair wards off inflation.
Hmmm, strange I thought the horn did that!!
The hair would usefully make a very warm blanket for this cold snap… :)
3dcandy
Both these have gone because of the internet…
Arrrr, down with the internet then!!! :surprised: :)
can see WH Smith failing next
Here I sit, looking disappointingly looking to my left to see my two HMV gift vouchers - expensive and worthless pieces of plastic, much like Niki Minaj.