I'm sorry, but that screenshot makes it look absolutely dreadful. Can someone explain to me why simple filer windows need *that* many buttons and wasted real-estate?
Sorry to be the party pooper!
Irien
I'm sorry, but that screenshot makes it look absolutely dreadful. Can someone explain to me why simple filer windows need *that* many buttons and wasted real-estate?
Sorry to be the party pooper!
It's the Windows 8: Finger Friendly Edition. You can collapse and hide the ribbon if you don't need it.
Oh dear God, please don't take anything from Office 2007+!!!
Let's take these handy, useful, easy to find buttons and bury them deep in a menu in a totally illogical place! “More intuitive” my arse!
It's still amusing to plonk down an experienced Office user in front of 2007 for the first time and ask them to open, modify, print, save and close a document. Yes, the shortcuts still work, but no, that's not more intuitive!
Oh dear, I've digressed again with a rant…
Looks good to me and a nice step forward for any person that is not too confident with using explorer/file manager.
Roobubba
Oh dear, I've digressed again with a rant…
Yes, you have ;)
People -
READ the blog carefully, watch the video - MS have gone to great pains to point out that nothing is lost - in fact you can see more files and they're focusing on providing lots of functionality for power users as well as the general user. They back up their post with real world stats if you read what's posted. It'd be nice if people posted objections having read and thought about the article - and constructively at that!
Sadly most people just looked at the screenshot and not the MS blog which gives you massive insight to how they got there (and it does make a lot of sense). Hexus are partially to blame as most people won't bother to follow the click through before commenting. People naturally fear change sadly.
Irien
I'm sorry, but that screenshot makes it look absolutely dreadful. Can someone explain to me why simple filer windows need *that* many buttons and wasted real-estate?
Sorry to be the party pooper!
Yes, MS can -
read the blog!
I would much rather they invested the time in fixing the “broken” windows Move/Copy logic under the hood instead of changing the UI to the ribbon. It's clearly going to be a love/hate thing but personally I hate losing all of that real estate if I want to have quick access to basic functions.
Power users DO tend to move away from explorer but its not because of the UI, it's because it sucks at copying files. I tend to use the standard explorer but with teracopy instead to do the actual copying, since it's sometimes up to 10 or 20x faster than explorer, with good options for resume/error reporting and so on.
This does them no favours imo - it will end up confusing the non power users (at least at first..office put off so many people and I still get no end of questions such as “Where has XYZ feature gone”). I can't see the benefit aside from MS trying to create more “unified product identities”, when they don't want to admit that they got it completely wrong with the ribbon UI in the first place.
what is the ribbon interface? what does that mean? does it mean tabs for different bits, as that's what it looks like to me
Buttons I would never use:
Copy (Ctrl+C)
Paste (Ctrl+V)
Cut (Ctrl+X)
Copy path - eh? what?
Paste shortcut - surely if you've got a shortcut in the clipboard, you'd just Ctrl+V?
Move to (Right click, send to….)
Copy to (same difference…)
Delete - FFS, just hit delete key!
Rename - Double left click slowly, surely everyone does this?
…meh all of them really. OMG… an open button, who's going to do that instead of double clicking? It's more work…?!
*facepalm*
Ye gawds!
That is terrible, so cluttered and so much wasted space.
Also why is it operating systems from the big three don't realise that most people now have a widescreen laptop? Using so much space for nothing at the top of the window should be punishable by having their screens cut in half.
cptwhite_uk
Buttons I would never use:
Copy (Ctrl+C)
Paste (Ctrl+V)
Cut (Ctrl+X)
Copy path - eh? what?
Paste shortcut - surely if you've got a shortcut in the clipboard, you'd just Ctrl+V?
Move to (Right click, send to….)
Copy to (same difference…)
Delete - FFS, just hit delete key!
Rename - Double left click slowly, surely everyone does this?
…meh all of them really. OMG… an open button, who's going to do that instead of double clicking? It's more work…?!
*facepalm*
Fallen right into the trap of the perspective of a power user - most people don't known about almost any keyboard shortcuts because it's hidden functionality just like the other items you described. For power users there are now over 200 direct keyboard shortcuts but most people won't ever use them but you and I can ;)
People marvel at me showing them Win+E to open explorer!
cptwhite_uk
Buttons I would never use:…meh all of them really.
So, no interest in a Windows tablet/touch screen interface then?
Gordy
Ye gawds!
That is terrible, so cluttered and so much wasted space.
Also why is it operating systems from the big three don't realise that most people now have a widescreen laptop? Using so much space for nothing at the top of the window should be punishable by having their screens cut in half.
Did you read the blog? Y'know the bit where they discuss they know most people are using a widescreen and how they've coped with that?
:clapping:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/29/improvements-in-windows-explorer.aspx <—CLICK THIS!!
I don't get what the big deal is with the ribbon interface haters. Sure, it's different from the interface of old, but essentially it's just a tabbed toolbar. It took me all of about 20 seconds to get used to it.
I confess, it did annoy me that they also took away the traditional drop-down menu names from Office 2007+, but this is mainly because I use office so infrequently these days that I haven't really got used to it yet. However, the idea of a tabbed toolbar was very easy to adapt to.
Gordy
Also why is it operating systems from the big three don't realise that most people now have a widescreen laptop? Using so much space for nothing at the top of the window should be punishable by having their screens cut in half.
You must have missed the section on “Designing for a wider screen” :rolleyes:
Fraz
I don't get what the big deal is with the ribbon interface haters. Sure, it's different from the interface of old, but essentially it's just a tabbed toolbar. It took me all of about 20 seconds to get used to it.
I confess, it did annoy me that they also took away the traditional drop-down menu names from Office 2007+, but this is mainly because I use office so infrequently these days that I haven't really got used to it yet. However, the idea of a tabbed toolbar was very easy to adapt to.
People don't like UI change - ever. I call it the issue of ‘embedded users’ - I suffer from it in my own software because people don't ever want to get out of their comfort zone and learn something new (regardless if it's better - and I agree for me the new office was TONS better than all that hidden obscure functionality that nobody could find except by muscle memory and years of enforced hunting for things).
cptwhite_uk
…meh all of them really. OMG… an open button, who's going to do that instead of double clicking? It's more work…?!
*facepalm*
Tablet users, double clicking in attempt to open a file with a finger on Windows 7 sometimes results in renaming or selecting another file.
Copy path - eh? what?
It copies the path of the selected file, e.g. you can do this on Vista and 7 by holding the shift key, right clicking a file and selecting ‘Copy as Path’.
Really handy feature when working with files on command lines.
Gordy
Ye gawds!
That is terrible, so cluttered and so much wasted space.
Also why is it operating systems from the big three don't realise that most people now have a widescreen laptop? Using so much space for nothing at the top of the window should be punishable by having their screens cut in half.
http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-net/201290-news-microsoft-bringing-ribbon-interface-windows-8-explorer.htmlBeen over some of these before, the space is for newbs, basically.
Pro users will simply have it in auto hide mode (double click the tab header).
The reason they don't put it to the left or the right is apparently we prefer to see things horizontally, according to most HCI types…. But I'd agree the option would be very good, espesually on ultra small laptops.
cptwhite_uk
Buttons I would never use:
…
Paste shortcut - surely if you've got a shortcut in the clipboard, you'd just Ctrl+V?
…
Delete - FFS, just hit delete key!*facepalm*
Afraid you've miss understood, Paste Shortcut pastes a shortcut to whatever is on the clipboard, it's a quick way of making a shortcut, copy the target, paste shortcut on the destination location.
And delete, well think about if someone is using say some kind of tablet? Or a newb.
A lot of the complaints here are quite frankly stupid, born out of ignorance, this pisses me off because it hides the legitimate ones (ie Mine!) from being heard, they get drowned in the sea of “i'm not even going to read the blog post or watch the video, but I know I the ribbon”. The daily mail readers of the geek world.
What is wrong with you people?
How freaking hard is it? Every time the ribbon interface pops up it's immediately “oh, that doesn't make any sense” and “how illogical”.
The ribbon IS logical, period! There are *a few* things that could fit in a couple of tabs, but apart from that everything is easier to find if people switch on their freaking brains and think “hmmm, I'd like to insert a graph, lets see, *insert, line graph* instead of ”where is that numerical plotting feature? Let me check view, how about formulas?“. Rinse and repeat!
It took me two weeks to teach my mother to think logically instead of just viewing every tab without actually looking at the options. ”There are too many options, which one do I want?"
Step 1: Engage brain
Step 2: Select feature
:whip:
pauldarkside
You must have missed the section on “Designing for a wider screen” :rolleyes:
That explains how it keeps pace with Windows 7, but doesn't explain that the concept was already broken in Windows 7 though ;) Imagine how much more height you'd have if you kept the Win 7 style top and then added the Win 8 style bottom.
True we can get this with the minimised ribbon, and I (like many others) will end up cutomising the ribbon so its minimised and pretty much replicates the traditional explorer shortcut bar..it would be nice if MS would provide this as a layout option rather than making us do the work though.
UI change is great and needed - evolution and in some cases revolution is necessary for good software to get better. My problem is that I don't think the ribbon is the answer, it doesn't work well for “normal” or “power” users, and just simply isn't that intuitive to new or established users. Like I say it's a love/hate thing and we can always get around it..I just don't like it personally.
The thing that amuses me about UI change is that when Apple does it everyone is like:
“Wow man, the UI is just soooo much better. I want Steve Jobs's babies.”
Whereas when Microsoft does it, it's more like:
“OMG Microsoft are such a bunch of lamers!!!!111!! Ribbon interface WTF lol!”
:rolleyes:
People seem willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt, and largely accept the new way of working without too much complaint. But for Microsoft it's always much “cooler” to instantly hate everything they do, irrespective of how well-considered the changes might be.
Spud1
That explains how it keeps pace with Windows 7, but doesn't explain that the concept was already broken in Windows 7 though ;) Imagine how much more height you'd have if you kept the Win 7 style top and then added the Win 8 style bottom.
Thank you..
pauldarkside
You must have missed the section on “Designing for a wider screen” :rolleyes:
Nope, they've just made things “better” by removing something that was a big waste of space before now. Then putting something else in that does the same. That isn't an improvement.
dangel
Did you read the blog? Y'know the bit where they discuss they know most people are using a widescreen and how they've coped with that?
:clapping:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/29/improvements-in-windows-explorer.aspx <—CLICK THIS!!
Well done. Now look at the two examples they give in the explanation. Both are terrible examples of exactly what I was talking about. Huge horizontal strips of wasted space. The ribbon is granted better than whats in Win 7 as in windows 7 the wasted space contained nothing. It's still a huge chunk of space taken up screen space on a widescreen display whichever way you look at it.
I just did a rough comparison on the image with finder and in the space that Windows 7 and 8 have 22 and 24 files listed finder has 33 and that's with slightly larger text size. That's a big chunk of space. Finder is by no means perfect, but in terms of space wasted it has at least the right idea.
cameronlite
What is wrong with you people?
How freaking hard is it? Every time the ribbon interface pops up it's immediately “oh, that doesn't make any sense” and “how illogical”.
The ribbon IS logical, period! There are *a few* things that could fit in a couple of tabs, but apart from that everything is easier to find if people switch on their freaking brains and think “hmmm, I'd like to insert a graph, lets see, *insert, line graph* instead of ”where is that numerical plotting feature? Let me check view, how about formulas?“. Rinse and repeat!
It took me two weeks to teach my mother to think logically instead of just viewing every tab without actually looking at the options. ”There are too many options, which one do I want?"
Step 1: Engage brain
Step 2: Select feature
:whip:
If the ribbon is so logical, why is it that nearly all browsers are getting rid of the space wasted in the menu bar and button area? For an extreme example look at google chrome. The
Most important area of any window is what is being worked on. Everything else is secondary to that. The ribbon pushes the content 1/3 of the way down the screen on some computers.
Edit Sorry for double posting. Power cut between posts.
I know you can minimize the ribbon, but that is not the point. As only power users will ever know it exists or use it. The default settings are key to how a product is used by the masses. I've still yet to find a single client who likes the ribbon in office. Mind who actually enjoys using Word or Excel these days? It's damning indictment of features over useability.
*urgh*
I use Office 2010 and it still takes me a long time to find things I've not used before but I never had an issue on old versions just logically guessing the menu and quickly browsing a small area to find the option I wanted.
The ribbon has three problems: It's less efficient for something you've not used before , It's not unified and it's bulky as hell, wasting screen real estate.
I'm worried this is going to make even more entry level users look to Mac.
Office 2007 was a monumental improvement, as I expect Windows 8 will be.
I know a self-ascribed “tech expert” who continually disables all the new features in Windows (UAC, taskbar logos, new style control panel etc) and then as soon as they're an integral part of the OS and there are other new features to hate, treats them like a long-lost friend.
People are so obsessed with the idea that Windows is dumbing down and destroying their “power user” experience that they often can't see when it's actually making life easier for everybody.
And besides, it was cool to hate Vista.
I can't see the blog (blogs.msdn.com is blocked at work :rolleyes:), but my only wish is that they'd move Explorer towards something like Directory Opus - not as advanced or customisable, and keep it basic by default, but it would be nice to have tabbed folders and even the option of dual-pane windows.
Roobubba
It's still amusing to plonk down an experienced Office user in front of 2007 for the first time and ask them to open, modify, print, save and close a document. Yes, the shortcuts still work, but no, that's not more intuitive!
Being used to Office 2007, and now 2010, I find going back to 2003 (as I do very infrequently on some of our machines which haven't been updated yet) is
horrible. It's completely unfathomable. You think going the other way is harder?
Things improve. I'd rather something is redesigned for the better and if it takes a little while to get used to it, then I'll deal with it, so long as it
is an improvement.
Gordy
Mind who actually enjoys using Word or Excel these days? It's damning indictment of features over useability.
Anyone who wants a decent spreadsheet application, as all the alternatives (free anyway) are rubbish for anyone doing anything remotely advanced. Word is less of an issue, though for things like mail merge it is still leagues ahead… I just wish people would stop using Word as a DTP package.
Gordy
I know you can minimize the ribbon, but that is not the point.
That may be a bit of a moot point anyway, as perhaps the majority of users will have touchscreens in the not-too-distant future, be they tablets, laptops or regular monitors.
Anyway, it's not our fault if less experienced users see the button to roll-up the ribbon or not. 1) they're unlikely to care anyway as most of the time they'll be an internet browser or other application and 2) if they do care, they'll “Google it” or go exploring.
Either way, since the dawn of time computers have had little features in them that only power users really used, and regardless of how big and colourful you make that button, they'll still be the only ones who use it.
Gordy
If the ribbon is so logical, why is it that nearly all browsers are getting rid of the space wasted in the menu bar and button area? For an extreme example look at google chrome. The Most important area of any window is what is being worked on. Everything else is secondary to that. The ribbon pushes the content 1/3 of the way down the screen on some computers.
You're comparing apples and SUVs, browsers do not require the user interraction that say, Word does.
Gordy
I know you can minimize the ribbon, but that is not the point. As only power users will ever know it exists or use it. The default settings are key to how a product is used by the masses. I've still yet to find a single client who likes the ribbon in office. Mind who actually enjoys using Word or Excel these days? It's damning indictment of features over useability.
Those people will fall into the categories already mentioned. People that don't like change. Granted, if they were happy with the original system, then why change it? Well, firstly, new users find it MUCH simpler to use and secondly it allows a global interface for many programs which simplifies programs having different interfaces.
this_is_gav
Being used to Office 2007, and now 2010, I find going back to 2003 (as I do very infrequently on some of our machines which haven't been updated yet) is horrible. It's completely unfathomable.
I can only agree here, it is awful. Even going back to XP from 7 makes you realise how much slower it is to use the old systems. Let alone how ugly they are :p
Gordy
The Most important area of any window is what is being worked on. Everything else is secondary to that.
I think the keywords there are “worked on”. A browser is for the consumption of webpages. Very little UI interaction is needed outside the page which you are viewing. There really is no “work” happening for the user. They are just consuming.
I don't think the rules of UI design for a browser apply to office products at all. The UI is used all the time if you are creating a document. Granted, this is a lot less true for a file browser… “browsing” obviously being the main usage. So perhaps Google's design principle does apply better there.
Still, knowing Microsoft, they'll probably ditch the whole thing before it gets released. :)
As to “Finder”, I find it one of Apple's weakest offerings. Never really worked out why, but it winds me right up. The bizarre lack of cut and paste is certainly part of it. So, I just use the excellent bash command line instead.
To be fair, I hadn't considered the user experience from a touch screen perspective. Obviously that makes a lot more sense when you factor that in, and the paste shortcut feature is probably a useful feature now it's been explained.
Touchscreen is something I generally avoid when it comes to a PC user experience. I've begrudingly accepted it on a phone due to the form factor, but when it comes to larger form factors I don't see the appeal.
Also I wasn't aware of the “blog” - that was posted after my comments?! ;)
this_is_gav
Anyone who wants a decent spreadsheet application, as all the alternatives (free anyway) are rubbish for anyone doing anything remotely advanced. Word is less of an issue, though for things like mail merge it is still leagues ahead… I just wish people would stop using Word as a DTP package.
I wasn't aiming this point at just excel, but most spreadsheet and word type applications. None of them are that enjoyable to use.
Oh dear.
As a power user of Word, I am slowly getting used to the ribbon. For me it is a backward step but I suspect that light users of Word it is probably better.
For power users, Word 2010 is in fact a backward step compared to WordPerfect 5.1 which was around 20 years ago. Word 2010 has a mind off its own and frequently reformats paragraphs randomly.
Mind you I barely use windows explorer. Firefox works better (but is getting worse), Chrome is cleaner and faster.
cjs150
Mind you I barely use windows explorer. Firefox works better (but is getting worse), Chrome is cleaner and faster.
Erm?
this_is_gav
Erm?
file:///C:/
:D
dangel
Fallen right into the trap of the perspective of a power user - most people don't known about almost any keyboard shortcuts because it's hidden functionality just like the other items you described. For power users there are now over 200 direct keyboard shortcuts but most people won't ever use them but you and I can ;)
People marvel at me showing them Win+E to open explorer!
That blog you're telling everyone to read?
It reports that 32% of people using Explorer accomplish actions via keyboard shortcuts. 55% use context (right-click menus). Almost 90% of Explorer users are using the keyboard or context menu.
It's not power users doing that stuff. It's everyone with an IQ above 85.
directhex
That blog you're telling everyone to read?
It reports that 32% of people using Explorer accomplish actions via keyboard shortcuts. 55% use context (right-click menus). Almost 90% of Explorer users are using the keyboard or context menu.
It's not power users doing that stuff. It's everyone with an IQ above 85.
True, but that is not an argument against the ribbon at all, if anything its an argument of how bad the current interface is!
For a start off how would a new user find the command keys?, this interface also brings more in.
So new users are better keyboarded, and pro users are better keyboarded.
Screen real estate, all users get more rows by default than win7 by default, those who collapse the ribbon get more than current users, widescreen users get to use the preview pain space but not the ribbon vertically, well thats a half good thing!
The quick pin action list is bloody handy thou, and the programming model (i'm assuming they'll expose it) of been able to add more features ala say Picture editing in word, I think will make a great UI for even the pro users who seldom use that tool.
Can't see what all the fuss is about, except its expanded by default, but those people will get their action resolved by just double clicking it, and closing the window (to save settings) less time than their rants on the internets…..
Newbs and Touch users will be greatly benefitting from this, and also I think once 3rd party apps have adopted this it will be a much cleaner state of play than the current context menu is.
TheAnimus
True, but that is not an argument against the ribbon at all, if anything its an argument of how bad the current interface is!
Agreed. So let's analyse.
These top 10 commands cover 81% of Explorer usage. Every other action Explorer can do covers less than 20% of actual real-world usage.
Only 2 of those top 10 commands has a clickybutton. Clearly this is the failure condition. Let's make a new interface which focuses on those ten actions that covers 81% of use, right?
Explain how the first two analyses leads to this design. More than 50% of the space in this bar is for actions which are rarely used. Of the ten actions they highlight, their positioning and sizing is random and has no bearing on how frequently they're used - e.g. “New Item” is 6x more used than “New Folder”, but is half the size.
Actually, it's worse than that. “the top 10 commands represent 81.8% of total usage” - plus “The commands that make up 84% of what customers do in Explorer are now all available on this one tab” means they decided to use up 50% of the default toolbar space on actions which are only used
2% of the time.
That's what people are criticizing - the cognitive dissonance between “our users use these ten commands” and “look at our new invert selection button”.
directhex
It reports that 32% of people using Explorer accomplish actions via keyboard shortcuts. 55% use context (right-click menus). Almost 90% of Explorer users are using the keyboard or context menu.
That is assuming those 32% are mutally exclusive to the 55%. In reality, that 55% is likely to include the majority of the keyboard shortcut users. Jus' sayin' :P
I'm still running XP here and I'm looking at getting 7 for my new build (see my siggy :P) but that's around Christmas time or Q1 of 2012. I'd hate to pay out a £100 license to use for 10 months before Windows 8 comes out. Because I'm sick of being the one who runs an out of date OS. There's not even a vista PC in this hosue! :O
EvanJackPenn
I'm still running XP here and I'm looking at getting 7 for my new build (see my siggy :P) but that's around Christmas time or Q1 of 2012. I'd hate to pay out a £100 license to use for 10 months before Windows 8 comes out. Because I'm sick of being the one who runs an out of date OS. There's not even a vista PC in this hosue! :O
:surprised: Grab your pitchforks guys…
directhex
Agreed. So let's analyse.
…
Explain how the first two analyses leads to this design. More than 50% of the space in this bar is for actions which are rarely used. Of the ten actions they highlight, their positioning and sizing is random and has no bearing on how frequently they're used - e.g. “New Item” is 6x more used than “New Folder”, but is half the size.
Actually, it's worse than that. “the top 10 commands represent 81.8% of total usage” - plus “The commands that make up 84% of what customers do in Explorer are now all available on this one tab” means they decided to use up 50% of the default toolbar space on actions which are only used 2% of the time.
That's what people are criticizing - the cognitive dissonance between “our users use these ten commands” and “look at our new invert selection button”.
There comes a question of why are so many people ignoring certain features?
I agree the New Item been less prominant than New Folder, but hey, this isn't the final cut yet!
Some of the features, such as a the copy path are really rather handy, but seldom used at present, I think there is a disconnect between the figures they have published showing what is used, and what some analysists THINK people WANT to use.
The example I would give is seat belts, so few people used them at first they were neglected, but thanks to public awareness AND the on going engineering making them more comfortable, more people started using them. The legislation was behind the innovation. Ok, its not a good example, but its 16:15 here and I'm tired, and its the best I can do…
What I'm trying to say is that it would be folly to say well having 82% of our users copying and pasting is job done!
directhex
It's not power users doing that stuff. It's everyone with an IQ above 85.
Lies and damn statistics eh? ;)
IQ has very little to do with it - although it makes a good punchline no doubt. Hidden functionality is bad period. Not as funny though, sorry.
It'd certainly be interesting to see stats once the ribbon is introduced and whether this has a tangible effect on what gets used by comparison - as has been said, much of how people do things can be led by what's there now and I don't know if the stats are exclusive either. In any case I encourage people to comment on the blog site as they do seem to be taking note of suggestions/feedback.
essentially anyone who has figured out keyboard shortcuts has figured out that its simpler and quicker than moving the mouse to these buttons :- its more efficient, you don't have to move your mouse and probably not even your fingers on the keyboard.
So its better for touch screen users - is that why they did it in office? because what the world needs is people typing on touch screens into word processing programs… really?
maybe there should be a split between OS's so that touchscreen can keep thier crappy features and excesses of buttons, and those of us that actually work on PC's can use things the way that theyre meant to be used? - infact, isnt it iOS that runs on Ipads and the like? if apple can see the light, surely microsoft can see that they are 2 entirely different markets and PC users don't need the shiny button rubbish that touchscreen users do?
I'm one of the groups that now fails to be able to find anything of use in the new office 2007+ menu systems as it just doesnt follow any of the same logic that I've used for the past 15 years!
mmh
essentially anyone who has figured out keyboard shortcuts has figured out that its simpler and quicker than moving the mouse to these buttons :- its more efficient, you don't have to move your mouse and probably not even your fingers on the keyboard.
…or the fact that the buttons just aren't there and the menus are hidden in Windows 7 means you have little choice. The current UI pushes users down a certain road to a large degree. I wholeheartedly agree it's quicker but currently if you want just to use a mouse you're having to use context menus pretty much all of the time.
mmh
So its better for touch screen users - is that why they did it in office? because what the world needs is people typing on touch screens into word processing programs… really?
I think that's a fallacy - they did it in office (and blogged about it) as a result of so many people being unable to find anything in the myriad of menus hidden away. For me the ribbon was a massive improvement in this area (although i'm not claiming it's perfect by any means). Remember the horror of when they tried menus-what-hid-infrequently-used-items? That was unbelievably annoying.
mmh
maybe there should be a split between OS's so that touchscreen can keep thier crappy features and excesses of buttons, and those of us that actually work on PC's can use things the way that they're meant to be used? - infact, isnt it iOS that runs on Ipads and the like? if apple can see the light, surely microsoft can see that they are 2 entirely different markets and PC users don't need the shiny button rubbish that touchscreen users do?
I think there already is - this is not a touch interface, that has already been shown.
mmh
I'm one of the groups that now fails to be able to find anything of use in the new office 2007+ menu systems as it just doesnt follow any of the same logic that I've used for the past 15 years!
Understandable - I was initially sceptical and found it difficult for a short while until I got used to it. For 90% of the time i can find what I want right away (or it actually contextually changes so that I do) but there is always the odd item that's harder to find. I think they said that Word had 1500 odd features and that exposing all of them is extremely difficult if not impossible.
directhex
That blog you're telling everyone to read? It reports that 32% of people using Explorer accomplish actions via keyboard shortcuts. 55% use context (right-click menus). Almost 90% of Explorer users are using the keyboard or context menu. It's not power users doing that stuff. It's everyone with an IQ above 85.
That being the case, then why the heck aren't MS doing something innovative and dispensing with the menu's - replace them with right-click and (optional!) keyboard shortcuts? TBH, that's more intuitive than the stupid “ribbon” - I can't believe that anyone would have much of a problem with the idea that one button is “select” and the other is “action”.
No one seems to have too much trouble with the idea of selecting items and then doing long-press to get a context menu on their mobiles - so why not carry that idea across for the tablet edition of Win8? Again, no need for any menu really. I'm in agreement with the folks that are decrying the loss of valuable screen “real estate” (not everyone uses a massive monitor) to clutter, more so if your Win8 device is a tablet (<10“ screen).
And I'm sure that I'm not the only person who's got into the sloppy habit of using the right-click as a combined select and context menu action. ;)
I thought it'd be too good to last and MS would find someway to pour some Office 2007 UI s**te into Windows8. Still, I suppose there will be a way to turn it all off…
(As you can probably guess, I'm no fan of the Office2007+ ”way" - which is the main reason that I switched to LibreOffice at home).
I keep going back and forth with the ribbon. It is initutive in some areas but really bad in other areas.
To me, it is just like trying to learn again and I really don't see how it is better than the old one.
To me, it is the same thing - i.e. learn where the buttons are located so I can do what I need to do (whether they are buttons are now bigger or smaller etc).
Right now, the conclusion for me is that I don't like the ribbon.
However, this file system for MS is still infinitely better than the file system in Apple.
What I don't understand is how you think anyone is taking something away from you? MS have stated you'll have many more keyboard shortcuts available and the bar can be hidden - it's more customisable not less..
Windows - getting ruined release by release.
From the 3D icons in XP to cartoony icons of Vista and Windows 7 and now this Ribbon crap!
dangel
What I don't understand is how you think anyone is taking something away from you? MS have stated you'll have many more keyboard shortcuts available and the bar can be hidden - it's more customisable not less..
Yes, but its the default and so MS wants you to move from the old style to the new style…
It's sorta like Vista/Win7 with the new programe layout at the start menu. Vista had the option of turning back on the old style but Win7 didn't and so you could see the direction MS wants to go with these stuff.
usxhe190
Yes, but its the default and so MS wants you to move from the old style to the new style…
..which is different from XP or 7 how? For most users they're saying this makes sense - for the majority of hexus folk it probably doesn't - every time I install XP or 7 for myself I end up customising explorer because it's not by default set up for a ‘power user’ (hateful term). I understand why it's like that.
mmh
It's sorta like Vista/Win7 with the new programe layout at the start menu. Vista had the option of turning back on the old style but Win7 didn't and so you could see the direction MS wants to go with these stuff.
Things have to change. The XP start menu (especially in ‘classic’ mode) was fecking horrible. Whilst I hate the expand/contract UI in 7 (XP's finicky menu->submenu->submenu->submenu was beyond annoying), the instant search and instant running of any command you can take from my cold dead body ;)
TBH, I liked the menu system in XP coz you don't have to click submenus and stuff, you just move your cursor and the submenus appear a lot. You just adjust the menu delay setting and it comes up very quickly.
With Win7, I use search function and the recently used programs a lot more.
As for the ribbon in windows explorer, I think it is just the same as the old menu style. I don't see it being better to be honest.
usxhe190
TBH, I liked the menu system in XP coz you don't have to click submenus and stuff, you just move your cursor and the submenus appear a lot. You just adjust the menu delay setting and it comes up very quickly.
With Win7, I use search function and the recently used programs a lot more.
As for the ribbon in windows explorer, I think it is just the same as the old menu style. I don't see it being better to be honest.
Assuming you mean the pre-Vista style drop-down menus, then aren't you contradicting yourself?
You don't like the extra click needed when navigating the start menu in Windows 7, yet you don't mind the extra click needed in navigating the old-style drop-down menus?
this_is_gav
Assuming you mean the pre-Vista style drop-down menus, then aren't you contradicting yourself?
You don't like the extra click needed when navigating the start menu in Windows 7, yet you don't mind the extra click needed in navigating the old-style drop-down menus?
XP had a start menu that doesn't require a click and the submenu just shows.
Vista/Win7 had a start menu where you need to click again to show the submenu which was shown inside the start menu window thingy.
I like the XP style better.
Yeah, I got that bit. :)
But you don't have a preference between the XP Explorer drop-down menus or the new ribbon, which would require one less click for the vast majority of tasks?
If so it strikes me as odd that you don't like the extra click needed in the Windows Vista/7 start menu, yet don't mind the extra click needed in the Windows XP drop-down menus of Explorer.
Fraz
The thing that amuses me about UI change is that when Apple does it everyone is like:
“Wow man, the UI is just soooo much better. I want Steve Jobs's babies.”
Whereas when Microsoft does it, it's more like:
“OMG Microsoft are such a bunch of lamers!!!!111!! Ribbon interface WTF lol!”
:rolleyes:
People seem willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt, and largely accept the new way of working without too much complaint. But for Microsoft it's always much “cooler” to instantly hate everything they do, irrespective of how well-considered the changes might be.
An amusing and astute observation.
The reason is that after their massive outlay, they don't want to admit that their new appletosh is just as bad/good (delete as appropriate) as an equivalent specced PC that cost 1/4 the price!
this_is_gav
Yeah, I got that bit. :)
But you don't have a preference between the XP Explorer drop-down menus or the new ribbon, which would require one less click for the vast majority of tasks?
If so it strikes me as odd that you don't like the extra click needed in the Windows Vista/7 start menu, yet don't mind the extra click needed in the Windows XP drop-down menus of Explorer.
Ah, so you are talking about the windows explorer thingy. Yes, some buttons might be less clicks but some are not its based on my office experience. To me, its the fact that everything is all moved and need to relearn.
I am all for relearning but to be, I am re-learning to buttons which to me I just dont think it “improves” my experience - more like its the same thing to me but just need to find the buttons in the right places.
Oh to be clear, I am not talking about extra functions as I think there are more functions in ribbon style but you could have that in the old style as well.
usxhe190
Ah, so you are talking about the windows explorer thingy. Yes, some buttons might be less clicks but some are not its based on my office experience. To me, its the fact that everything is all moved and need to relearn.
One of the benefits of having a logical tabbed interface is that you don't have to learn it. Illogical systems you must learn to use efficiently, good logical systems don't require memory.
cameronlite
One of the benefits of having a logical tabbed interface is that you don't have to learn it. Illogical systems you must learn to use efficiently, good logical systems don't require memory.
While that works for most (of course, being logical) and I completely agree, I think most “power users” just click. They don't really read or realise where they're going, they just know where to point their mouse or what shortcuts to use instinctively (I know I do), and maybe that's where the ‘problem’ lies (and by ‘problem’ I mean for those who can't or don't want to adapt). That's probably why I haven't moved my taskbar to the side yet - because naturally I just throw my mouse to the bottom-left corner and the start-menu appears, and to my knowledge there isn't a way to move the start button to the bottom-left if I have the taskbar on the side - it's forced to the top-left. I'm sure I will do that eventually and just adapt (as I have done to Office 2007/2010) in this world of (infuriatingly) ever-increasing 16:9 rations.
Still, like I said earlier, if it's an improvement, then I'm all for it. I don't mind relearning if what I'm relearning is beneficial in the long run… and let's face it, the ribbon is set to stay. As you say, it's logical for users, it's better suited to touchscreen users, it can be hidden for “power users”… there isn't really a drawback apart from the stubborn.
I'll give a poor analogy - to my knowledge there wasn't much
that wrong with the old BIOS menus, but most of us have been screaming for something a little more user-friendly and flexible, and we are the very sort of users who will be tinkering in the BIOS screens constantly.
dangel
Things have to change. The XP start menu (especially in ‘classic’ mode) was fecking horrible. Whilst I hate the expand/contract UI in 7 (XP's finicky menu->submenu->submenu->submenu was beyond annoying), the instant search and instant running of any command you can take from my cold dead body ;)
+1 on that - having the search feature in the menu bar was a gold feature for me - I really should be more eager to rearrange app folders “logically”.
dangel
What I don't understand is how you think anyone is taking something away from you? MS have stated you'll have many more keyboard shortcuts available and the bar can be hidden - it's more customisable not less..
Fair enough - my worry is that (like the “improved” - their words not mine - UI in Office2007+) we'll get new UI “improvements” which can't be skipped/removed/bypassed. Still, kudos to MS in being so open, and hopefully there'll be a beta programme like the Win7 one (that'll let me install Win8RC in a VM).
usxhe190
However, this file system for MS is still infinitely better than the file system in Apple.
Thought that OS X was essentially a BSD base so I looked it up on
http://osxbook.com/book/bonus/ancient/whatismacosx//arch_fs.html and after reading that I tend to agree with you - the case insensitivity in particular is a no-no for me.
Apologies others that this is off topic…
Irien
I'm sorry, but that screenshot makes it look absolutely dreadful. Can someone explain to me why simple filer windows need *that* many buttons and wasted real-estate?
Sorry to be the party pooper!
Short answer: my mother.
Long answer: my mum still finds simple things like moving, copying, renaming etc… very difficult to do. It's a key part of getting photos ready to put on DVD so she can take it them to be developed, we might all manage it as second nature, others aren't so fortunate. Having all the buttons clearly in a ribbon along the top will be a huge boon for her.
Personally, I'm in two minds about it, but, I can certainly see the benefits for some. And if it can be collapsed… I can't see downsides for anyone!
Now I can be absolutely sure that Total Commander won't die for a very, very long time! :woowoo:
Windows Exploder, what a load of rubbish. From first edition to the last.
ypsylon
Now I can be absolutely sure that Total Commander won't die for a very, very long time! :woowoo:
Windows Exploder, what a load of rubbish. From first edition to the last.
On what basis? What is it precisely in the announcement that you see as so rubbish?
Ah, Total Commander, the UI that time forgot.
Never touched Total Commander, I did use Norton Commander back in the 80s though.
I have a brilliant 5-row ribbon interface, activated by pressing the ctrl key.