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Posted by koocha - Tue 05 Aug 2008 14:41
For those of you who missed it go to www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer and jump to 32 minutes into it.

Those dragons are mean, but I like em!

PS. Global warming is a myth, but I'm up for spending less on my leccy bill.
Posted by N3il - Tue 05 Aug 2008 14:45
I always wondered how people could go on there with those horrible people (and lets face it, whether they are doing it for the camera or whether its edited for this purpose - they do come across as horrible). But I suppose its gained him publicity even if they dont back him..
Posted by kalniel - Tue 05 Aug 2008 15:13
N3il
I always wondered how people could go on there with those horrible people (and lets face it, whether they are doing it for the camera or whether its edited for this purpose - they do come across as horrible). But I suppose its gained him publicity even if they dont back him..

I don't think they come across as horrible at all - I've had very similar style grillings at business funding competitions. They might not agree with you about the potential market for your business, but you can just agree to disagree there. There's nothing else for them to complain about if you get your preparation and numbers right.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 05 Aug 2008 15:50
koocha
For those of you who missed it go to www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer and jump to 32 minutes into it.

Those dragons are mean, but I like em!

PS. Global warming is a myth, but I'm up for spending less on my leccy bill.

You sir are an idiot. Having Father Dougal in your avatar is quite fitting.
Posted by TAKTAK - Tue 05 Aug 2008 15:56
revol68
You sir are an idiot. Having Father Dougal in your avatar is quite fitting.

well global warming is all due to the decline in the number of pirates anyway…



well.. that and all of the Dihydro monoxide in the atmosphere :)

we need to petition and get it banned;)

see the dangers of Dihydro monoxide HERE
Posted by nichomach - Tue 05 Aug 2008 15:59
So we should destroy the RIAA and MPAA on environmental grounds and not just because they're a bunch of ******s, then?
Posted by Infinite - Tue 05 Aug 2008 15:59
Anyone heard of VeryPC? Cause I know I havent.

A company worth 5 mil turns over 20k? Doesnt sound right to me.
Posted by nichomach - Tue 05 Aug 2008 16:00
Yes, they've had some good reviews in the usual tech press:
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/search/?q=VeryPC&magazine=all&section=all&m=all&as=yes&x=0&y=0
Posted by CrazyMonkey - Tue 05 Aug 2008 16:43
nichomach
So we should destroy the RIAA and MPAA on environmental grounds and not just because they're a bunch of ******s, then?

Are you a futuristicsexrobots fan? They have an awesome song i think you would like.
Posted by mycarsavw - Tue 05 Aug 2008 16:52
"None of the Dragons we interested in investing an, initially at least, the whole thing looked entirely negative for Hopton and Very PC. But there’s always two sides to the story so we rang Hopton this morning to find out his perspective. "

;)

He stood his ground, took some flack and made a great program that little bit better.
Posted by koocha - Tue 05 Aug 2008 18:01
revol68
You sir are an idiot. Having Father Dougal in your avatar is quite fitting.

It's true. The earth has these periods of warming up and cooling down. It's a fact.

http://www.globalwarming.nottinghamshiretimes.co.uk/GLOBALWARMINGMYTH.html

http://www.junkscience.com/news/robinson.htm

http://www.abacus-news.co.uk/science.htm

EDIT:

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io-Tb7vTamY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsGgndK7F2k

And i'd appreciate not being called an idiot :D
Posted by pumpman - Tue 05 Aug 2008 19:28
Infinite
Anyone heard of VeryPC? Cause I know I havent.

A company worth 5 mil turns over 20k? Doesnt sound right to me.
I believe the turnover was more than that and the net profit after tax all expenses ie wages rent etc was £20,000, In the IT niche sector I think that is very good, most large companies hope to achieve 10% so they are not to far from that.

As for the programme, if we put aside that it is a bit of a pantomime, they are venture capitalists. They themselves have done nothing special, they are parasites. I have never heard of any of the companies they run. if they are honest, they have done nothing special. A lot if it is to do with being in the right place and the right time.

Anyone of us given the right circumstances could do what they do, they are nothing special. At least the company highlighted has come up with a good idea. Hey is it was that simple, why have Dell, IBM etc not done so already, not because it not hard to do , but thye have seen an opportunity.

Fair play to them, I hope they continue to do well.


As for the rudeness shown by the dragons apart from Mr Khan who at least took the time to speak about the figures, they just made themselves look like boligerant imbeciles and there is an old addage in business, remember those on the way up as you may meet them on the way down.

The firm will be better people than the Dragons ever will, and their millions can't change that.
Posted by WoLFe - Tue 05 Aug 2008 21:04
At the end of the day it's a TV show, God knows how much they (the dragons) get payed to appear in it anyway. It does seem to get more watered down every series as well, 'tis to be expected though.

I also agree with many points raised in the post above me.
Posted by Rosaline - Tue 05 Aug 2008 21:53
koocha
It's true. The earth has these periods of warming up and cooling down. It's a fact.



And i'd appreciate not being called an idiot :D

I'm sure you would appreciate not being called an idiot, but having not listed http://realclimate.org, stating you support such overwhelmingly discredited beliefs, and worst of all - derailing a thread, you might well be asking for it ;)

As for the Dragon's Den, we must remember that what they air on TV is a highly edited version of what I imagine must be talks that can last for an hour or more. The BBC did no favours to the dragons when they chose the “RS232” mention to broadcast, simply because it sounded all techy.

I went and looked at veryPC's product range. To be honest, none of it really excites me, their prices are mediocre, and their own hacks must be very impressive in order to justify using them in my opinion. I am also very dubious still about the practicalities of marketing Atom based PCs in the place of the mainstream processors, given the power differential (Nano, however, might be a different case entirely).

In the Hexus article, they state that they don't want to invest in patents. Assuming they could, to not do so would allow competitors to start up and compete directly against them. And if they can't, competitors are bound to try now.

But perhaps the truth of why they did not chose to invest is not just because of the ease of competition, but that of returns on investment. The IT sector has strong competition, low cost of entry, and because of which, profit margins that simply don't sound sexy. We have seen several systems builders collapse over the last year, making it clear that this is not a simple and safe market to be involved in.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 05 Aug 2008 22:45
koocha
It's true. The earth has these periods of warming up and cooling down. It's a fact.

http://www.globalwarming.nottinghamshiretimes.co.uk/GLOBALWARMINGMYTH.html

http://www.junkscience.com/news/robinson.htm

http://www.abacus-news.co.uk/science.htm

EDIT:

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io-Tb7vTamY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsGgndK7F2k

And i'd appreciate not being called an idiot :D

yes and people get lung cancer who've never smoked, it' s entirely irrelevant.

Actually what is your point, first you claimed global warming was a myth now you are saying the earth does heat up?

Whether or not the world would be heating up somewhat without human produced greenhouse gases is not relevant, the fact is that our production of such gases does increase the global temperature and that has serious repurcussions for billions of people around the world.

and whether you appreaciate it or not you are an idiot, i afterall don't appreciate know nothing muppets claiming global warming is a myth and the vast scientific consensus is wrong because they have some links to some sh1tty youtube videos.

What next, intelligent design, HIV and AIDS denial or why not turn to history and become a Holocaust revisionist?
Posted by joshwa - Tue 05 Aug 2008 23:15
Hi Revol68 - please don't swear - also personal insults are not acceptable on this forum.

Please consider this a friendly warning.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 05 Aug 2008 23:19
calling a global warming denier an idiot is not a personal insult anymore than calling a KKK member a racist is.
Posted by TooNice - Tue 05 Aug 2008 23:28
pumpman
At least the company highlighted has come up with a good idea. Hey is it was that simple, why have Dell, IBM etc not done so already, not because it not hard to do , but thye have seen an opportunity.
Or maybe the larger companies deemed the market too small/unprofitable to warrant their attention ATM. It may not make business sense for Dell to replace their current product line if the new line is less profitable, or introduce a new line which may end up cannibalising sales of their current products . VeryPC may be in a unique position to carve a niche in the same way that the Raptor has it's niche.

As to your rant against venture capitalist, what do you expect them to be doing? They are not a charity, and those entrepreneurs are strangers. They could be nicer, but in the end, it makes sense to me they would scrutinize every project for their profitability and tell it as they see it (right or wrong).
Posted by revol68 - Tue 05 Aug 2008 23:33
TooNice
Or maybe the larger companies deemed the market too small/unprofitable to warrant their attention at the moment. It may not make business sense for Dell to replace their current product line if the new line is less profitable, or introduce a new line which may end up cannibalising sales of their current products . VeryPC may be in a unique position to carve a niche in the same way that the Raptor has it's niche.

As to your rant against venture capitalist, what do you expect them to be doing? They are not a charity, and those entrepreneurs are strangers. They could be nicer, but in the end, it makes sense to me they would scrutinize every project for their profitability and tell it as they see it (right or wrong).

yeah VeryPC may manage to get a niche market and then expand from their if they can but I think it's silly to complain of venture capitalists being mean and too focussed on profit rather than ethics, it's a bit like complaining about the bad manners of a mugger.
Posted by Steven W - Tue 05 Aug 2008 23:45
I'd heard of them. Didn't think he deserved the abuse.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 05 Aug 2008 23:49
Steven W;1491854
I'd heard of them. Didn't think he deserved the abuse.

aye but the whole point of the show is that they are big bad, take no nonsense, pull no punches venture capitalists out to smack down peoples hopes, dreams and aspirations with some economic reality and of course snidey over aggressive mannerisms.
Posted by PeterStoba - Wed 06 Aug 2008 00:02
Can you have 54monitors connected to a PC? :s
Posted by joshwa - Wed 06 Aug 2008 00:21
On the subject of Dragon's Den - the terminal argument from Peter was somewhat irrelevant - and who would actually use terminals these days? (he appears to be talking about 54 thin client machines and a citrix(?) server - or something similar)

But regarding the PCs themselves - how difficult would it be for Dell or any other big company to start publishing power consumption figures for the PCs/Laptops they sell? and simply introducing a “Green” low-power range? Like this company they could just select low power CPUs, hard drives, fans, power supplies etc.
Posted by revol68 - Wed 06 Aug 2008 00:24
joshwa
On the subject of Dragon's Den - the terminal argument from Peter was somewhat irrelevant - and who would actually use terminals these days? (he appears to be talking about 54 thin client machines and a citrix(?) server - or something similar)

But regarding the PCs themselves - how difficult would it be for Dell or any other big company to start publishing power consumption figures for the PCs/Laptops they sell? and simply introducing a “Green” low-power range? Like this company they could just select low power CPUs, hard drives, fans, power supplies etc.

haven't Dell already moved towards that with that new Hybrid thing, boasting of it's low power consumption and the like.
Posted by joshwa - Wed 06 Aug 2008 00:36
revol68
haven't Dell already moved towards that with that new Hybrid thing, boasting of it's low power consumption and the like.

Yep - they come with a 65W AC Adaptor so must use less than that - or a max of 65w under load. They don't give specifics such as idle watt use and load… other than:

dell
Size and materials - Our smallest design is about 80% smaller than standard desktops.
Power usage - Uses about 70% less power than a typical desktop.
Packaging - Studio Hybrid packaging is made from 95% recyclable materials.
Posted by Whiternoise - Mon 11 Aug 2008 00:57
The dragons have one purpose. To make money. Plenty of people come on with charitable ideas and get shot down for being in the wrong place. Simply telling them that it would take a long time to make serious amounts of money is an immediate put off - they want results now. I mean the idea could be ground breaking, but at the end of the day they're capitalists.

Also remember that half of them probably don't know RAM from ROM, and would probably stumble quickly if they got out of their depth in technology. It's a fair point asking why other top manufacturers haven't done anything like it yet, so naturally the obvious answer is to say it's not a viable business option.

I wish Very PC all the best. They're doing a great job, and as the man said “there's no such thing as bad publicity”, at the end of the day they got their funding and didn't have to sacrifice their business either. Well done to them!

Plus, it's pretty much a fact that “GREEN” sells.. Joe Customer thinks “hey, i can add it to my recycling and say to the neighbours that i'm doing better than they are”.

koocha
It's true. The earth has these periods of warming up and cooling down. It's a fact.

Not to detract from the thread, but whatever your views on global warming, climate change et al all you have to do is look at Beijing and the amount of work they've done to reduce the fog caused by.. wait for it.. over industrialisation.

One of the best arguments i've heard is thus:

Imagine 50 years time..

1. Global Warming is a fact. Humanity does nothing. Basically we're all screwed for it, species die out, crops wither and are untenable, some crops can no longer be grown naturally, sea levels rise beyond our control, prices for everything skyrocket as resources become scarce. Get the picture here? BAD.

2. Global Warming is not a fact. Humanity does nothing. Lucky break, the world continues as normal and settles into it's “usual cycle”.

3. Global Warming is not a fact. Humanity does something. Well, it didn't actually happen but look where it got us. We recycle over 50% of our resources, thus not needing so many raw materials. Electronics use far, far less power than before, so your electricity bills go down. Cars run on biofuels - since all the oil has run out and or skyrocketed in price - and produce lower emissions and are potentially cheaper to run. Being more conservative with everything means we don't waste as much (regardless of global warming, the amount of stuff that we waste is criminal), we pay less on pretty much all of our bills and we're better off for it.

4. Global Warming is a fact. Humanity does something. So, it's pretty bad, but at least it didn't really hit the fan quite so much. As above, we're using a lot less resources, the temperature hasn't quite risen high enough to kill everything off and the sea level hasn't yet risen to crippling levels. The damage that global warming could have caused has been roughly minimised and we're seeing the benefits.

Now if, as you believe, G.W. doesn't exist, then surely option 3 is better than option 2? As you rightly say, your bills get cheaper too! If it does exist then we're doing the right thing. Either way, it's not really worth the risk to sit around waiting for the time when you might be able to say “I told you so!”.
Posted by alsenior - Mon 11 Aug 2008 02:36
joshwa
On the subject of Dragon's Den - the terminal argument from Peter was somewhat irrelevant - and who would actually use terminals these days? (he appears to be talking about 54 thin client machines and a citrix(?) server - or something similar)

he mentioned RS232 in what he said. that made me think that he is not shall we say up to date. hell serial is only really used for low level stuff or things like flashing roms. i would seriously doubt any tech credentials he has for recommending connecting modern thin clients to a server by serial.
Posted by Saracen - Mon 11 Aug 2008 02:57
revol68
calling a global warming denier an idiot is not a personal insult anymore than calling a KKK member a racist is.
Calling a member of these forums an idiot is a personal insult. You've been asked by a mod, as a friendly warning, not to do it, and responding by telling him that it's not an insult is not the expected response. So this is a less friendly warning. Do not do it again.
Posted by revol68 - Mon 11 Aug 2008 23:01
Saracen
Calling a member of these forums an idiot is a personal insult. You've been asked by a mod, as a friendly warning, not to do it, and responding by telling him that it's not an insult is not the expected response. So this is a less friendly warning. Do not do it again.

So membership of the Hexus forums automatically protects people from the terrible affliction of idiocy? What a community this must truly be.

i really don't know of a milder, more family friendly term for someone who denies climate change, infact idiot is atleast giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not lying/twisting things for their own gain like the actually backers of the denial lobby who've pumped millions into mudding the waters and creating an artificial debate over the reality of climate change.

I'm also curious as to how far this ban on ‘insulting’ people goes, if someone denied the holocaust would I be entitled to call them an idiot, if they made arguments that were racist, sexist or homophobe? (examples of which are dotted through out the Hexus forums btw) which to my mind are far more insulting than being called an idiot.

People claiming global warming is a fiction insult everyones intelligence, I see no reason to care that they be insulted by being called idiots anymore than flat earthers or creationists.

As for the expected response comment, have you any idea what that sounds like? What was the expected response, to fall on two knees and thank the mod for having such mercy when they could so easily have elected to swot me like a fly?
Posted by koocha - Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:43
revol68
So membership of the Hexus forums automatically protects people from the terrible affliction of idiocy? What a community this must truly be.

i really don't know of a milder, more family friendly term for someone who denies climate change, infact idiot is atleast giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not lying/twisting things for their own gain like the actually backers of the denial lobby who've pumped millions into mudding the waters and creating an artificial debate over the reality of climate change.

I'm also curious as to how far this ban on ‘insulting’ people goes, if someone denied the holocaust would I be entitled to call them an idiot, if they made arguments that were racist, sexist or homophobe? (examples of which are dotted through out the Hexus forums btw) which to my mind are far more insulting than being called an idiot.

People claiming global warming is a fiction insult everyones intelligence, I see no reason to care that they be insulted by being called idiots anymore than flat earthers or creationists.

As for the expected response comment, have you any idea what that sounds like? What was the expected response, to fall on two knees and thank the mod for having such mercy when they could so easily have elected to swot me like a fly?

Ok, first off, put your handbag away.

Second, let me pick out some random smileys to cheer the place up: :shocked2::baby::yawn::D:rant::redcard::clapping:

Thirdly, what about the end of the world? Does it really matter about global warming if the world is going to end?!?!?!?!?!

http://www.december212012.com
Posted by TAKTAK - Tue 12 Aug 2008 02:11
revol68
So membership of the Hexus forums automatically protects people from the terrible affliction of idiocy? What a community this must truly be.

i really don't know of a milder, more family friendly term for someone who denies climate change, infact idiot is atleast giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not lying/twisting things for their own gain like the actually backers of the denial lobby who've pumped millions into mudding the waters and creating an artificial debate over the reality of climate change.

I'm also curious as to how far this ban on ‘insulting’ people goes, if someone denied the holocaust would I be entitled to call them an idiot, if they made arguments that were racist, sexist or homophobe? (examples of which are dotted through out the Hexus forums btw) which to my mind are far more insulting than being called an idiot.

People claiming global warming is a fiction insult everyones intelligence, I see no reason to care that they be insulted by being called idiots anymore than flat earthers or creationists.

As for the expected response comment, have you any idea what that sounds like? What was the expected response, to fall on two knees and thank the mod for having such mercy when they could so easily have elected to swot me like a fly?

why such nihlism? (is that the right word? :confused:)

everyone has the right to air their views on the matter (whether they be the same, or whether they be different) without being told that they are ‘idiots’..
and seeing as though calling someone an ‘idiot’ is deemed as verbal abuse (in company), it is acceptable on the ground of HEXUS to perpetuate a low tolerance of any issues of users at each others throats. OBV it is up to the mods what is said in a joking fashion and what is not…

but the fact of the matter is global warming would occur naturally if humans were not around… the fact that we are here merely speeds up the process… afterall, we are still coming out of an iceage, so one should expect global temperature to fluctuate…
but that does not deny you, your own views on the subject… and your right to air them in public.

but TBPH there is no way of providing infallible evidence for/against the situation… so in a way… everyone is an ‘idiot’… it's all guess work and predicting whether to ignore it and suffer the consequences (if it is true), or do something and suffer the consequences (if it is wrong)

but to set it out..

do something: it happens : economic downturn world suffers anyway
do something: it doesn't happen : economic downturn, world suffers
don't do anything: it happens : (according to all the hype everything assplodes and dies)
don't do anything: it doesn't happen : the world is fine and carries on as normal….

so there is a 3/4 chance of the world suffering…. a 100% chance of suffering if something is done, and a 50% chance of suffering if something isn't done… which to me looks better towards not doing anything…

obviously that is just my take on the scenario.. and people can ‘poopoo’ it all they like, but i'm steadfast in my views
Posted by Nick - Tue 12 Aug 2008 02:54
revol68
So membership of the Hexus forums automatically protects people from the terrible affliction of idiocy? What a community this must truly be.
That's your opinion and, unless you've invented some device that can measure someone's IQ by their posts on a forum, keep your opinion to yourself.

revol68
i really don't know of a milder, more family friendly term for someone who denies climate change,
How about ‘climate change denier’?

revol68
infact idiot is atleast giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not lying/twisting things for their own gain like the actually backers of the denial lobby who've pumped millions into mudding the waters and creating an artificial debate over the reality of climate change.
Maybe so but the fact is that there's equal amounts of research to both confirm and refute global warming… and the pro-warming campaign is hardly helped by evangelistic doomsayers who do little to help their cause by labelling those who they feel are less educated on the subject as idiots.

revol68
I'm also curious as to how far this ban on ‘insulting’ people goes, if someone denied the holocaust would I be entitled to call them an idiot, if they made arguments that were racist, sexist or homophobe? (examples of which are dotted through out the Hexus forums btw) which to my mind are far more insulting than being called an idiot.
It's common courtesy more than anything and, to be perfectly frank, I shouldn't have to be giving lessons in basic manners to someone who clearly has the intelligence to use a computer. Would you call a checkout operator an idiot if they made an honest mistake with your change? I should hope not. And if you did think that was acceptable, I really hope I never bump into you in the real world.

Dragging up subjects such as the Holocaust, (note the capitalisation), as your defence for calling someone an idiot on a tech forum is just a cheap shot defence. Try it if you get a parking ticket you think is unfair and see how far it gets you. If you honestly had a clue, had maybe visited the museum at Auschwitz II and seen the shoes or gone to the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin and felt the foreboding, then maybe you wouldn't leap to such defence so readily. Six million men, women and children dead so you can defend your rudeness. That's horrific, shocking arrogance.

And for every example you can give me of racist, sexist or homophobic behaviour I can show you a dozen more where it's quite clear that the vast majority of members are a tolerant, friendly bunch… hell, even those that have had massive arguments over the tiniest of disagreements have managed to do so in good humour and without resorting to name-calling or insults.

Now either you're a really big, hard as nails kung fu master or you're constantly in and out of A+E because anyone walking around with an attitude such as yours would get people's backs up very quickly. Unless it's the third option and you're just like this once you're behind a keyboard.

revol68
People claiming global warming is a fiction insult everyones intelligence, I see no reason to care that they be insulted by being called idiots anymore than flat earthers or creationists.
Ok, so if you don't care, why care about global warming? You're perfectly happy to go on the offensive but at the same time you don't care? Or is it that those with a differing view from yours should be instantly dismissed as ignorant because you have all the real, true and irrefutable facts? If so, then why the hell are you wasting your time on here? You have all the answers to save mankind!

I rather suspect that you've drawn your own conclusions, perhaps got the box set of Al Gore's “An Inconvenient Truth” and have got Everest coming round to fit some solar panels. But whilst you're clambering onto what you perceive to be the moral high ground, (might be handy if the seas rise anyway), you seem to have lost sight of the fact that everyone is entitled to an opinion. And they're entitled to express that opinion without fear of personal attack.

And before you even think of telling me about your right to free speech, I'll just cough and politely remind you that the HEXUS.community is run by HEXUS and a highly valued group of unpaid admins and mods. This isn't a free speech arena. If you want to exercise your right to free speech, start your own forums or head off to Speaker's Corner.

revol68
As for the expected response comment, have you any idea what that sounds like? What was the expected response, to fall on two knees and thank the mod for having such mercy when they could so easily have elected to swot me like a fly?
Well, I guess Saracen wasn't expecting something as childish as this last remark… can you not see that by being so puerile all you're doing is undermining all of your arguments? Any serious point you make is pretty much forgotten with comments like that.

All I can say in answer is that no, we don't expect anyone to fall on their knees and hail the mods as lord of the web. but we do expect everyone to behave like reasonable human beings and be civil to one another. If you can't do that or, as I suspect the case will be, you feel that others on the forums aren't deserving of civil treatment from you, then I strongly suggest you go elsewhere.

The choice is yours.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 12 Aug 2008 03:22
TAKTAK
why such nihlism? (is that the right word? :confused:)

everyone has the right to air their views on the matter (whether they be the same, or whether they be different) without being told that they are ‘idiots’..
and seeing as though calling someone an ‘idiot’ is deemed as verbal abuse (in company), it is acceptable on the ground of HEXUS to perpetuate a low tolerance of any issues of users at each others throats. OBV it is up to the mods what is said in a joking fashion and what is not…

but the fact of the matter is global warming would occur naturally if humans were not around… the fact that we are here merely speeds up the process… afterall, we are still coming out of an iceage, so one should expect global temperature to fluctuate…
but that does not deny you, your own views on the subject… and your right to air them in public.

but TBPH there is no way of providing infallible evidence for/against the situation… so in a way… everyone is an ‘idiot’… it's all guess work and predicting whether to ignore it and suffer the consequences (if it is true), or do something and suffer the consequences (if it is wrong)

but to set it out..

do something: it happens : economic downturn world suffers anyway
do something: it doesn't happen : economic downturn, world suffers
don't do anything: it happens : (according to all the hype everything assplodes and dies)
don't do anything: it doesn't happen : the world is fine and carries on as normal….

so there is a 3/4 chance of the world suffering…. a 100% chance of suffering if something is done, and a 50% chance of suffering if something isn't done… which to me looks better towards not doing anything…

obviously that is just my take on the scenario.. and people can ‘poopoo’ it all they like, but i'm steadfast in my views

What poorly understood relativist nonsense (and no nihilism is not at all the correct word).

Respecting someones right to have an opinion is not at all the same as having to respect that persons views or for that matter not to hold them with contempt because they hold that view.

Interestingly your unbelievably absurd argument put forward about global warming is actually more befitting of an epistemological nihilism, throwing out such superflous things like research, data and scientific modelling which all say greenhouse gases account for atleast 80% of global warming,in favour of an absurd multiple choice question in which the probability of all answers is weighed exactly the same.

Honestly you couldn't make this sort of crap up.

And yes obviously this is just your take on the scenario, frankly i couldn't imagine such nonsense finding much resonance beyond the peculiar limits of one persons mind, and yes i'm free to poo poo it as much as I want, infact it could almost go on for infinity the two of us claiming our repsective opinions are correct, thankfully however most of us have found a neat way of circumnavigating such an impasse by appealling to such things as facts, figures, and reason rather than entirely subjective brain farts.
Posted by TAKTAK - Tue 12 Aug 2008 03:48
global temperature fluctuations in history……..


recent temperature fluctuations……


HANGONAMINUTE!!11!!

it seems to fit perfectly…

special note being taken to the fact that early temperature variation spikes at around 3c higher…

and the fact that we are coming out of an iceage……. temperatures will go up… and they will go down again…

you cannot base any theories in recent temperature changes you need to base them on temperature samples obtained by examination of deep ice.. over vast distances of time.

and as the earth heats up, the water evapourates which releases the CO2 which adds to the greenhouse effect in a natural manner.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 12 Aug 2008 03:57
Firstly thanks for the lecture on the holocaust (and the capitalisation), however the whole point of using the holocaust was because exactly of it's extremism, the fact that it does test the limits of ‘tolerance’, ie should we tolerate or respect those that would seek to deny it happened? I was not making it an equivalent to a climate change denier, I certainly would be using much stronger language to a holocaust denier and i would think justifably so. Now considering that millions of people will face losing their homes and lives through global warming I should think those people denying it should consider the term idiot as extremely charitable, just as HIV/AIDS “skeptics” should.

As for Climate Change itself, no I haven't watch Al Gore's film, nor bought into the wonderful array of environmental ‘lifestyle’ brands and consumer products that are designed more to appeal to a niche middle class poseurs than to radically address the a much deeper rooted problem. I am well aware that climatec change is being used in such a way that the costs and taxes are being externalised by state and business onto Joe and Joanna Bloggs, with us all suppoused to feel guilty about our cheap flight to Barcelona. What none of these concerns and criticisms of the managing of climate change does is change one iota the fact climate change is happening that bar a few contrarians and deliberate mystifiers (see those peedling the line about solar activity being responsible) the vast, vast majority of scientific data, research and literature all points to human produced green house gases being responsible for atleast 80% of temperature rises and that this rise is causing rising sea levels, more extreme weather (more energy in the worlds weather systems does that) and all the human suffering that entails.

There are many interesting debates as to how we deal with the issue of climate change, the “debate” as to whether or not it is happening however is simply a non event being promoted by a few with very clear interests in stirring up doubt and controversy to stifle any pratical measures that would impose upon their profits. It's a strategy referred to as inertia creating and in it's doubt sewing and disingenous appeals to a ‘fair hearing’ (it gets far more of a hearing than the science warrants thanks to it's very wealthy backers) and reliance on a kind of crude epistemological relativism it has much in common with the proponents of teaching Intelligent Design in schools.

I actually find it hilarious that such an innocuous and weak ‘insult’ like idiot has prompted such hysterical reactions, afterall most of us are tough enough and ugly enough to get over being called an idiot on an internet bulletin, it's certainly warranting of far less attention than the fact people are denying climate change with no evidence beyond whimsy conjecture or bankrupt espitemological relativism that far from being disinterested sits perfectly behind the agenda of climate change deniers and their strategy of inertia creating.

So if it gets us back on track to discussing the actual issues and stops people dodging the actual facts of the matter by whinging about such a ineffectual word as idiot I will no longer call climate deniers it, instead i'll refer to them as “rocket scientists”.
Posted by revol68 - Tue 12 Aug 2008 04:09
TAKTAK
global temperature fluctuations in history……..


recent temperature fluctuations……


HANGONAMINUTE!!11!!

it seems to fit perfectly…

special note being taken to the fact that early temperature variation spikes at around 3c higher…

and the fact that we are coming out of an iceage……. temperatures will go up… and they will go down again…

you cannot base any theories in recent temperature changes you need to base them on temperature samples obtained by examination of deep ice.. over vast distances of time.

and as the earth heats up, the water evapourates which releases the CO2 which adds to the greenhouse effect in a natural manner.

One question what tangiable thing is actually heating the earth up? You can't simply claim it'srising because it's rising and it's some vague ‘natural process’, account for the process, show that it's actually independent of human activity.

The graphs of course you show are over hundreds of thousands of years, with all the extremes that such massive geological time gives rise to, it doesn't however tell us what is causing the rapidly rising temperatures within a century, or why solar activity which was previously linked quite tightly to global temperatures haven't been since the 70's.

This deals with the water vapour ‘non argument’,

and this one with that other climate change denial stalwart, ‘we’re coming out of an ice age'
Posted by azrael316 - Tue 12 Aug 2008 08:25
Wow, started reading a thread about a locally based company , and suddenly its all about Holocaust denial, Global Warming, and people being idiots. :rockon2:

Personally, I think Global Warming is still up for debate, nowhere near enough research has been done on either side to make a definative statement of fact, and until there is those with ill informed opinions, based on other peoples opinions, should really try to keep schtum and not act like :shaun:
Posted by Scott B - Tue 12 Aug 2008 08:55
revol68
One question what tangiable thing is actually heating the earth up? You can't simply claim it'srising because it's rising and it's some vague ‘natural process’, account for the process, show that it's actually independent of human activity.

The graphs of course you show are over hundreds of thousands of years, with all the extremes that such massive geological time gives rise to, it doesn't however tell us what is causing the rapidly rising temperatures within a century, or why solar activity which was previously linked quite tightly to global temperatures haven't been since the 70's.

While you can't prove that global warming is entirely a result of natural causes, neither can you currently, conclusively prove it's anthropogenic.

To adopt such a dogmatic stance while uncertainty remains is irrational and implies an ulterior motive - possibly your apparent need to consider yourself intellectual as, to your credit, you see through all the middle class preachy stuff.

Either way, it doesn't serve your argument well to be both dogmatic and abusive. It merely discredits you as an individual, presumably the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.
Posted by TAKTAK - Tue 12 Aug 2008 09:49
revol68
One question what tangiable thing is actually heating the earth up? You can't simply claim it'srising because it's rising and it's some vague ‘natural process’, account for the process, show that it's actually independent of human activity.

1: natural rotation of the sun creates changes due to the intensity of sunlight as the sun moves closer to the earth's surface.

2: aerosol emissions of volcanic eruptions

3: Carbon dioxide emissions from volcanic eruptions creating greenhouse gas

4: Ocean Currents have a signifiant effect on heat changes around the earth. The effect of ocean current on heat changes, varies from region to region and this may be related to the rotation of the sun.



but noones views are currently 100% right… there is no way to prove or disprove the respective opposing party…

as i have said before, there is evidence towards and against global warming and it practically balances out.

therefore i suggest that we all stop bickering in this thread and move over to the climate changes thread and continue there, if it is really necessary, instead of dragging this thread more and more into the ground.
Posted by nichomach - Tue 12 Aug 2008 11:29
Nick
Maybe so but the fact is that there's equal amounts of research to both confirm and refute global warming… and the pro-warming campaign is hardly helped by evangelistic doomsayers who do little to help their cause by labelling those who they feel are less educated on the subject as idiots.
Whilst rebuking revol68 for labelling those who disagree with him as idiots is undeniably justified, this is simply untrue. For reference, see The Royal Society's helpful notes on climate change myths. The scientific consensus is that anthropogenic climate change is real and serious, Channel 4 polemics disguised as documentaries notwithstanding.