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Posted by ik9000 - Tue 24 Nov 2020 13:23
wow. The desperation at intel is almost tangible. What's the next stage? Cry fake news and create a conspiracy theory agenda?
Posted by [GSV]Trig - Tue 24 Nov 2020 13:38
AMD really has caught a lot of people off guard to the point they're just scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to excuses about their own performance, lack of improvement and stock availability..

Normally we'd get new products or lower prices, so the consumer wins, but at the mo we get nothing but excuses….
Posted by Tabbykatze - Tue 24 Nov 2020 16:48
Considering how many reviewers are saying how good the battery life is with decent on battery performance to boot? This was a highly selective bunch of BS from Intel, another Principled Technologies.

ArsTechnica did some checks on a laptop Intel had and had this to say:

This MSI Prestige 14 Evo—and its Core i7-1185G7 CPU—is a barn-burner, sure. But the “burn” is a little more literal than we'd prefer, with CPU temps screaming up to 94°C, and CPU power consumption of 34W sustained during Cinebench R23 testing.

The Ryzen 7 Pro 4750u in this HP EliteBook laptop stays relatively cool and quiet during its Cinebench R23 run, with max power consumption a whopping 21W lower than the i7-1185G7's.

But Intel is still playing games with its own power consumption. In the above screenshot, we can see the MSI Prestige Evo 14 with Core i7-1185G7 during a Cinebench R23 run. We haven't had this laptop for long enough to fully review it—and particularly, to review its battery life, which we've been very curious about since being forbidden to test that stat in two earlier i7-1185G7 systems.

But we can see that—rather than dial the i7-1185G7's cTDP down to something approximating the typical Ryzen 7 4000 cTDP of 15W, as widely expected—MSI has in this laptop chosen to dial it up even further than what we saw in earlier prototypes. This production i7-1185G7 system has a variable PL1 that hits as high as 36W during the course of a Cinebench R23 run—in addition to its PL2 of 51W, which is unchanged from the prototypes.

But this ignores the greater efficiency of the AMD systems, above and beyond the delayed shift to maximum performance (and battery consumption) states in the CPU. When we run Cinebench R23 for five full minutes, a Ryzen 7 Pro 4750u system renders more scenes than the Intel i7-1185G7, and it does so with less total power consumed. There's no clever trick to explain that away.

Source

There are quite a few videos from reviewers where the battery life coupled with performance from AMDs side was far superior to Intels 10th gen so unless there is a crazy magic smoke going on inside Intel Tiger Lake, I bet that reviewers are going to be finding that this hit piece behind closed doors by Intel, likely pushed and masterminded by Ryan Shrout whom historically, notoriously, had his tongue up the chutney tunnel of Intel so far he even got a high up role there makes this so devious.

The moral and ethical decay going on inside Intel is just disgusting.

I also am a bit miffed that Hexus was quite muted in this news post, this kind of thing from Intel should not be tolerated and unlike other reviewers whom are hitting this down how it should be, being muted just adds a little bit of “je ne sais quoi”…

Edit: It gets even better!

The blue bar represents the average score the Intel and AMD laptops achieve in the MobileMark 18 benchmark, showing Intel more than 50% in the lead. Additionally, it shows battery life in minutes, where AMD is given the win by around an hour. Most of you have probably never heard of MobileMark 18, and I hadn’t either, and it turns out that this is a benchmark from BapCo, one of Intel’s satellite benchmark companies. So Intel basically gave themselves this 50% win. Furthermore, battery life is not measured with an actual benchmark, but is based on nothing more than the battery size, which is obviously a very misleading way to show battery life.

Source

So Intel is using another benchmarking suite that is likely strongly optimised for Intel systems through compilers because noooo, Intel has never made and distributed a compiler that detriments an AMD system!
Posted by Ttaskmaster - Tue 24 Nov 2020 17:12
Childish spat between two childish tech monopolies, over who gets to monopolise more of my Monopoly money?

Thank-you for bringing it to my attention. Wake me when things have quietened down a bit.
Posted by Iota - Tue 24 Nov 2020 18:46
Usual Intel shenanigans then?

Also, what is with the recent Hexus comment threads all being invalid? This one links to this;

https://forums.hexus.net/showthread.php?t=7094

Which leads to this;

No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator
Posted by Tabbykatze - Tue 24 Nov 2020 19:07
Iota
Usual Intel shenanigans then?

Also, what is with the recent Hexus comment threads all being invalid? This one links to this;



Which leads to this;

Anything posted since monday is doing that for me
Posted by ik9000 - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:01
Iota
Usual Intel shenanigans then?

Also, what is with the recent Hexus comment threads all being invalid? This one links to this;



Which leads to this;

see here https://forums.hexus.net/hexus-suggestions/423068-hexus-bug.html
Posted by Tabbykatze - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:24
I’m not sure “AMD is gaming the benchmarks by giving our CPUs a ten second head start!” is the damning indictment you think it is, Intel.

A commenter on that ARS article, that should have been the article tagline xD
Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:25
CD from SA said on Twitter a while back Intel was ramping up OEM funds to try and stop AMD getting into better laptops.
Posted by Tabbykatze - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:33
CAT-THE-FIFTH
CD from SA said on Twitter a while back Intel was ramping up OEM funds to try and stop AMD getting into better laptops.

And it'll be 10 years before they're caught and fined again.

I really hope that OEMs are going to stand up to Intel, we can't have another ten years of BS from them again.
Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:35
Tabbykatze
And it'll be 10 years before they're caught and fined again.

I really hope that OEMs are going to stand up to Intel, we can't have another ten years of BS from them again.

Its really annoying when less techy mates after specific laptop models,and they are mostly Intel 4C/8T CPUs! :(
Posted by Tabbykatze - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:38
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Its really annoying when less techy mates after specific laptop models,and they are mostly Intel 4C/8T CPUs! :(

It's really poisonous to the industry as a whole.

I wish I could recommend more AMD laptops, but the designs are mostly garbage, like nearly no OEM doing an AMD laptop with anything bigger than a 2060!
Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:46
Tabbykatze
It's really poisonous to the industry as a whole.

I wish I could recommend more AMD laptops, but the designs are mostly garbage, like nearly no OEM doing an AMD laptop with anything bigger than a 2060!

It is especially the premium thin and light,and ruggedised laptops being mostly Intel too. The AMD APUs make more sense for those premium segments as they are simply better all-round SOCs IMHO.
Posted by Tabbykatze - Tue 24 Nov 2020 20:59
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It is especially the premium thin and light,and ruggedised laptops being mostly Intel too. The AMD APUs make more sense for those premium segments as they are simply better all-round SOCs IMHO.

They really are, i really wish authorities would be faster to react and investigate, if they don't act soon then the same thing will happen again.

Some people will say that the “absence of information is not confirmation”, well it can be argued that the omission of information/absence of tangibility can be justified that something is happening…
Posted by ik9000 - Tue 24 Nov 2020 21:24
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It is especially the premium thin and light,and ruggedised laptops being mostly Intel too. The AMD APUs make more sense for those premium segments as they are simply better all-round SOCs IMHO.

yup. I went searching and came to the same conclusion. Why no 4000U in say an XPS or similar? Most… puzzling.
Posted by Corky34 - Wed 25 Nov 2020 07:17
Nothing says buy my competitors product like throwing shades at it.

Not being a laptop person I'd assumed Intel and AMD laptops were much the same but if a massive company like Intel are taking notice of AMD laptops they must be rather good.
Posted by kompukare - Wed 25 Nov 2020 13:06
Tabbykatze
And it'll be 10 years before they're caught and fined again.

I really hope that OEMs are going to stand up to Intel, we can't have another ten years of BS from them again.

Yes, but if anyone makes purchasing decisions based on which company has <insert favourite expletive here> the consumer the least, someone might come along and accuse you of shopping based on activism, when all you are trying to do is ‘support’ the company which historically has committed fewer shady things.

And ‘support’ is too strong a word: more like not-support the shady company.

Point being, not to expect wonders from any company but rather to not reward the more aggressive anti-consumer company, and buying for now but with a view to my next purchase too. For that the AMD alternative doesn't have to be massively cheaper like they used to be, but rather while they are the smaller player - and cost at most the same (Zen3 might be entering into dangerous territory here) - I would rather buy them.

Intel for instance could easily afford to subside certain market to the tune of $billions like they did with table Atom chips with the intention of driving out competitors and later raise prices. In the meantime, consumers would get extra cheap CPUs like those £50 Atom tablets.

“Good” says our resident consumer champion, but when making a purchase I also think about tomorrow's prices after the competitors have been driven out. Maybe that makes me an activist!?
Posted by Tabbykatze - Wed 25 Nov 2020 13:42
kompukare
Yes, but if anyone makes purchasing decisions based on which company has <insert favourite expletive here> the consumer the least, someone might come along and accuse you of shopping based on activism, when all you are trying to do is ‘support’ the company which historically has committed fewer shady things.

And ‘support’ is too strong a word: more like not-support the shady company.

Point being, not to expect wonders from any company but rather to not reward the more aggressive anti-consumer company, and buying for now but with a view to my next purchase too. For that the AMD alternative doesn't have to be massively cheaper like they used to be, but rather while they are the smaller player - and cost at most the same (Zen3 might be entering into dangerous territory here) - I would rather buy them.

Intel for instance could easily afford to subside certain market to the tune of $billions like they did with table Atom chips with the intention of driving out competitors and later raise prices. In the meantime, consumers would get extra cheap CPUs like those £50 Atom tablets.

“Good” says our resident consumer champion, but when making a purchase I also think about tomorrow's prices after the competitors have been driven out. Maybe that makes me an activist!?

Purchasing decisions by end consumers will be corrupted when one business in an effective duopoly is forcing the hand of suppliers to remove or detriment the only other option.

In effect my comments come from Intel has been caught doing this before and crippled the CPU industry wherein servers and consumer systems stagnated in performance and features for nearly a decade. In the last 4 years it feels like there has been more movement in the industry than in the last 10.
Posted by cheesemp - Wed 25 Nov 2020 13:44
It's difficult to turn some of this Intel momentum around now its been so many years Intel have ruled the roost. I deal with creating minimum specs for servers for running our software. I had to explain that the spec we were recommending where less powerful than my cheap AMD 3600 powered desktop PC as intel had drop the ball so badly. The sad thing is it doesn't matter how good AMD are if Intel is the default option for the server manufacture you recommend (And work with). I did at least get to drop in an ‘or equivalent’! It's the same with laptops too - We've all been offered ‘high spec’ intel i7 laptops to replace our desktops and I said no I want AMD as they are better but that's the only spec IT can provide so it's the only option… I've asked to wait.
Posted by lumireleon - Wed 25 Nov 2020 14:24
ANSWER TO INTEL WOES: (1) Replace the top management (2) End the Blue versus Green badge employee politics, its bad for the creative engineers.

Essentially Hexus said it all… “Companies are naturally inclined to try and show their products in the best light but go too far and you will lose trust and burn through years of goodwill very quickly.”
Posted by John_Amstrad - Wed 25 Nov 2020 18:23
ik9000
wow. The desperation at intel is almost tangible. What's the next stage? Cry fake news and create a conspiracy theory agenda?

I laughed with tears on this comment. Best ever!
————
I will say it again SELL INTC before it is too late.
Posted by philehidiot - Wed 25 Nov 2020 18:28
lumireleon
ANSWER TO INTEL WOES: (1) Replace the top management (2) End the Blue versus Green badge employee politics, its bad for the creative engineers.

Essentially Hexus said it all… “Companies are naturally inclined to try and show their products in the best light but go too far and you will lose trust and burn through years of goodwill very quickly.”

Absolutely. Intel's division between the two tiers is killing them. Good engineers who are working on the actual front line of R&D aren't allowed to (or if they are allowed, aren't rewarded) make suggestions on improvements. They are also resentful as they're doing the grunt work without any corporate rewards (like full use of the R&R facilities) or job security. They are used to do a specific job, abused and dumped. I'd be resentful and I'd keep my good ideas to myself to show off at an interview for a company that'll treat me right.

I think they are making inroads into the top management as they did get rid of one of the troublecausers.

A business like Intel thrives on propagation of good ideas. It has learnt that it doesn't need to advance, as it wasn't being competed with, so it completely choked off the ideas market within the company. Now, AMD and (I hate to say it) Apple are showing that even the largest companies aren't too big to fail.

You're supposed to be selling innovation, whereas Intel was selling chips. Haswell only became unusable for me because of the side channel vulnerability mitigations. I only had to upgrade in several years due to Intel's screw ups and the only place to get properly better performance was their competitor.

I hope Intel survives this as the last thing we need is AMD (or APPLE!!) being all tyrannical in its place.

As for the second point, I feel marketing should just resist showing comparisons to competitor products. We never trust them anyway. Compare yourself to where you were yesterday and you should always show progress. Let the reviewers compare you to the competition. Internally, of course they should be buying and analysing competitor products. But the marketing should be just clean of it all so we can't question anything.

A salesman who always ridicules the competition is one not to be trusted, as it means their own product doesn't have enough selling points and they have to stomp on others. A salesman who always sticks to comparison to their older generation products feels more trustworthy, as they are pointing out flaws and improvements against their own products. Then, when that second salesman does mention something about the competition and where they have gone wrong, boy do you remember it… because they felt so strongly that they had to tell you.
Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH - Wed 25 Nov 2020 19:05
Intel can help its case a lot if stops all the stupid feature tierisation and naming schemes it has on desktop and in mobile.
Posted by Crowls - Wed 25 Nov 2020 19:22
ik9000
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It is especially the premium thin and light,and ruggedised laptops being mostly Intel too. The AMD APUs make more sense for those premium segments as they are simply better all-round SOCs IMHO.

yup. I went searching and came to the same conclusion. Why no 4000U in say an XPS or similar? Most… puzzling.

If they remain absent from those segments in 2021 then it will be more than reasonable to cry conspiracy and intel paying off oems to skip amd designs, but when they were planning for 202 they couldn't be sure that the demand would be there for amd cpus so they haven't tend to crop up in some form factors where the additional validation of designs would not necessarily pay off.

The fact that intel are trying to talk down amd laptops with biased and misleading presentations at this time would seem to indicate though that the oems are working on more compelling amd offerings for 2021.
Posted by Stu C - Wed 25 Nov 2020 19:55
I thought every laptop sacrifices performance for battery life, which is why they are all slower than desktop counterparts.
Posted by Yoyoyo69 - Thu 26 Nov 2020 06:44
Hexus won't post my original posts, just thjs doesn't surprise me one little but.


It's nothing new from what Intel have done in the past.
Posted by 3dcandy - Thu 26 Nov 2020 07:44
ik9000
see here https://forums.hexus.net/hexus-suggestions/423068-hexus-bug.html

I'd made so many witty, hilarious and also valuable comments as well….
Posted by DanceswithUnix - Thu 26 Nov 2020 08:11
philehidiot
I hope Intel survives this as the last thing we need is AMD (or APPLE!!) being all tyrannical in its place.

I don't think anyone can beat Intel for tyrannical beat-them-at-all-costs blatantly illegal bullying. Microsoft used to be close, but even they seem to have cleaned up their act a bit since Bill left.

It seems sadly ironic that the only reason Intel wasn't absorbed into IBM was that IBM at the time they bailed out Intel were scared of being broken up under monopoly legislation and wanted to be ethical and do the right thing; and that gave Intel the push away from bankruptcy and into being the well funded gorilla it is now. With hindsight pulling the then failed Intel into IBM oversight could have made the world a nicer place, possibly merging with IBM's CPU design teams giving better Intel CPUs. Or better still, we might have moved away from x86 years ago and be using PowerPC architecture that wasn't so obviously cobbled together in a hurry.
Posted by Saracen999 - Thu 26 Nov 2020 09:58
Iota
Usual Intel shenanigans then?

Also, what is with the recent Hexus comment threads all being invalid? This one links to this;



Which leads to this;
I don't know, because I have the same level of inside access these days as everybody else, i.e. none, but we did have an “outage” a few days ago (Sunday or Monday IIRC) and my guess would be …. something got broke. Maybe links, maybe a full re-index is needed, maybe some database damage, maybe just stuff close to that outage got broken. It's just speculation, and I assume if anything can be done, it is being or will be.
Posted by Saracen999 - Thu 26 Nov 2020 10:03
cheesemp
It's difficult to turn some of this Intel momentum around now its been so many years Intel have ruled the roost. I deal with creating minimum specs for servers for running our software. I had to explain that the spec we were recommending where less powerful than my cheap AMD 3600 powered desktop PC as intel had drop the ball so badly. The sad thing is it doesn't matter how good AMD are if Intel is the default option for the server manufacture you recommend (And work with). I did at least get to drop in an ‘or equivalent’! It's the same with laptops too - We've all been offered ‘high spec’ intel i7 laptops to replace our desktops and I said no I want AMD as they are better but that's the only spec IT can provide so it's the only option… I've asked to wait.
Echoes of “Nobody gets fired for buying Big Blue” …. until they didn't.

Heads up Intel - take note of the comment above about burning through goodwill, note the tone of posts here (and pretty much everywhere), then study what happened to “Big Blue” as a result of corporate arrogance.
Posted by Saracen999 - Thu 26 Nov 2020 10:08
Tabbykatze
Purchasing decisions by end consumers will be corrupted when one business in an effective duopoly is forcing the hand of suppliers to remove or detriment the only other option.

….
Not disagreeing with your point, but (pedant mode on) …. it can't really be a duopoly, or certainly not an effective one, if either duopolist can force suppliers to do much of anything, unless there is collusion between the duopolists, and not only is that illegal but in this case would suggest AMD actively sought to screw itself.

Intel's putative actions suggest it is, or at least believes itself to be, effectively a monopoly. At an absolute minimum, a duopoly with a substantial element of monopolistic power.

Just sayin'. :D
Posted by Tabbykatze - Thu 26 Nov 2020 11:39
Saracen999
Not disagreeing with your point, but (pedant mode on) …. it can't really be a duopoly, or certainly not an effective one, if either duopolist can force suppliers to do much of anything, unless there is collusion between the duopolists, and not only is that illegal but in this case would suggest AMD actively sought to screw itself.

Intel's putative actions suggest it is, or at least believes itself to be, effectively a monopoly. At an absolute minimum, a duopoly with a substantial element of monopolistic power.

Just sayin'. :D

Duopoly is certainly the wrong word, lets leave it at “anti-competitive actions to force a monopoly”.

I used the term duopoly as there really is only two competitors in the commercial CPU space for desktops and laptops.
Posted by ik9000 - Thu 26 Nov 2020 14:21
Tabbykatze
Duopoly is certainly the wrong word, lets leave it at “anti-competitive actions to force a monopoly”.

I used the term duopoly as there really is only two competitors in the commercial CPU space for desktops and laptops.

Isn't it technically 3 now apple have their apple-M silicon stuff in the market for macs (derived from ARM IIRC)?
Posted by ohmaheid - Thu 26 Nov 2020 16:46
Yoyoyo69
Hexus won't post my original posts, just thjs doesn't surprise me one little but.


It's nothing new from what Intel have done in the past.

Ditto.
Posted by Tabbykatze - Fri 27 Nov 2020 00:19
ik9000
Isn't it technically 3 now apple have their apple-M silicon stuff in the market for macs (derived from ARM IIRC)?

Mmm, yes and no, Apple isn't going to sell it others in the market, it's theirs and theirs alone.

I would say it's “difficult” to classify them in the same basket as Intel/AMD :P
Posted by bowepa - Sun 29 Nov 2020 22:45
If you want performance, get a PC :) laptop is for battery life.
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