I had all but decided just to get a 3900x to chuck in my B450 tomahawk as it would the last upgrade possible for the board, guess Ill have to have a rethink now then!
Excellent news!
Now the ball is in the motherboard OEMs court.
I'm not sure i agreed with all the negative press around this but it is a bonus the X470 board will support 4!!!!!!! generations of chips.
I was almost getting to the point that I wished AMD would just add an extra PIN to Zen 3 just to kill off the nonsense.
Kanoe
I'm not sure i agreed with all the negative press around this but it is a bonus the X470 board will support 4!!!!!!! generations of chips.
I was almost getting to the point that I wished AMD would just add an extra PIN to Zen 3 just to kill off the nonsense.
Well,if you look at Zen sales,they skyrocketed with Zen2,and the mainstream chipset was B450. X570 motherboards were £180+ and barely in stock for months. Most Zen2 owners were new users who upgraded in 2019. So it wasn't really nonsense for them,as they were stuck with the same generation. People who bought X470 in 2018,got two generations of CPUs.
The whole 3~4 generations argument was functionally pointless,as it assumed 100% of Ryzen buyers bought it in 2017,which is untrue.
Also people shutting up,achieves nothing,since things like GPP were dropped because of the backlash. AMD got the negative press,after it made statements mocking Intel in 2019,actively calling out competitors for being “bad” by forcing motherboard upgrades. This is partly a hole they got themselves into.
MSI apparently was not at all happy,as they had made massive investments into B450,more than any OEM,so were blindsided by the annoucement. They were going to lose big time as they sold the most B450 motherboards. Companies like Schenker who make custom AMD laptops with Clevo, were promised support for Zen3 in their Ryzen 9 3950X laptops,but were blindsided by it too. Those last two instances were not really fair for the companies involved.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Excellent news!
Now the ball is in the motherboard OEMs court.
I'd like to think CAT single-handedly deservers a certain % of the credit for this!
Reading between the lines, I'd imagine that certain OEMs (MSI Max) should be able to get both working.
Since Zen is a SOC anyway, you'd have though there would have been some way for AMD to spec that boards should be able to run at a min setting (just enough to flash the BIOS) with even unannounced future CPUs.
Or just spec a really cheap ARM processor on the chipset which can do USB BIOS Flashback. Maybe the logistics and cost of having had to send out those AM4 loan CPUs during the Zen2 launch might incentivise AMD to come up with something like that for AM5.
kompukare
I'd like to think CAT single-handedly deservers a certain % of the credit for this!
Reading between the lines, I'd imagine that certain OEMs (MSI Max) should be able to get both working.
Since Zen is a SOC anyway, you'd have though there would have been some way for AMD to spec that boards should be able to run at a min setting (just enough to flash the BIOS) with even unannounced future CPUs.
Or just spec a really cheap ARM processor on the chipset which can do USB BIOS Flashback. Maybe the logistics and cost of having had to send out those AM4 loan CPUs during the Zen2 launch might incentivise AMD to come up with something like that for AM5.
I am just a lone Moose with a keyboard,I say it was a group effort! :P
My view is AMD should have let companies decide what support arrangements they could make,but not stop supplying the microcode. This way companies which decide to put that extra effort,will distance themselves from others who CBA. This would have made sure AMD was not exposed to any bad PR,and people would see clearly which companies actually care about product support.
So going from Gamersnexus,the order will be MSI>ASRock/Gigabyte>Asus.
So, if you have a board that supports older CPU's, there might, BIOS sizes being taken into consideration, a BIOS update that only allows you to use the new Zen3, I don't see that as a problem, as long as you flash your BIOS to the new one before upgrading, unless they wipe the board totally and it will ONLY support Zen3, in which case how will a board react if you flash a BIOS that removes support for the CPU you have in the board when you flash it…
'[GSV
Trig;4209808']So, if you have a board that supports older CPU's, there might, BIOS sizes being taken into consideration, a BIOS update that only allows you to use the new Zen3, I don't see that as a problem, as long as you flash your BIOS to the new one before upgrading, unless they wipe the board totally and it will ONLY support Zen3, in which case how will a board react if you flash a BIOS that removes support for the CPU you have in the board when you flash it…
Well I get the impression,they will need to verify you have a Zen3 CPU at hand,and then send you the BIOS. Once you flash a Zen3 capable BIOS,you won't be able to move back to an earlier BIOS.
It seemed inevitable that they'd have to make a U-turn on this when it contradicted what they had previously told their OEM partners, let alone the backlash from consumers (particularly those who had not long ago bought into AM4 with a 400-series board), but I'm glad to hear that they came to their senses regardless.
I wish they could do something for us TR4 / X399 owners too, i would love to be able to go from my 1920X to a 3 generation TR processor first, and then in a few months get a new TR40 motherboard for the full blown experience of the new stuff.
Having to buy 2 expensive items in one go, at least for a guy like me on a pension are a tall order, i would have to flip pennies for the best part of a year to be able to do that.
The other way around i would also have to do just that, but i could split it up in 2 batches and still be able to use my hardware in between.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Excellent news!
Had a feeling you'd be happy about this ;-P
Good result for a large chunk of the Ryzen faithful & the early Zen adopters.
Hello!
As I try to understand it:
- Most of B450 and X470 motherboards shipped with 128Mb (16MB) of flash (bios) chips
- Newer revisions of B450 and X470 do have 256Mb (32MB) of flash chips
- AMD processors older than “Matisse” can only access 16MB of flash
- As AMD releases more processors, the AGESA blob continues to increase in size
- B550 was delayed
All these factors combined have created a sort of an issue where technically it is possible for both older and newer chipsets (different bios versions, basic uefi ui, dropping features) to support all the range of AM4 processors, but, it requires most effort from motherboard sellers at the cost of potential support issues hurting AMD's image … even for Ryzen 3000 series, some motherboards had to drop older APU support. However, having an option in any case is much better as AMD have now learned.
For the future, maybe the industry should move to SD cards (they support SPI mode) or have some option of a usb flash drive augmenting the onboard SPI flash memory along with building processors capable of addressing such larger flash!
Regards,
Ahmed
At least they did something, and are trying to make amends. I can't quite imagine Intel doing the same thing in the same position.
Cheap Ryzen 3000/Zen 2 chips coming in 2H 2020 then :)
Cat is a lone moose…
Must resist animal puns from now to eternity ;)
Yay!
Sort of… let's see what the mobo manufacturers do with this ‘gift’…
:shocked2:
kompukare
I'd like to think CAT single-handedly deservers a certain % of the credit for this!
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I am just a lone Moose with a keyboard,I say it was a group effort! :P
@CatV
KultiVator
Had a feeling you'd be happy about this ;-P
Good result for a large chunk of the Ryzen faithful & the early Zen adopters.
Yes,but now motherboard makers need to do the support. Let's see if Asus gets on it! ;)
3dcandy
Cat is a lone moose…
Must resist animal puns from now to eternity ;)
:D
ik9000
@CatV
:clapping:
Sumanji
Yay!
Sort of… let's see what the mobo manufacturers do with this ‘gift’…
:shocked2:
Well from what Gamersnexus said about how interested OEMs were:
MSI>ASRock/Gigabyte>Asus.
My motherboard is Asus!! :surprised:
just for once I'm glad to have gone MSI. I notice they also provided PS2 at the high end too. If they'd just help me with my driver issue instead of ignoring my posts maybe I wouldn't think they were so bad.
3dcandy
Cat is a lone moose…
Must resist animal puns from now to eternity ;)
Pfft, why resist? CAT could be considered a Moosekateer… :D
ik9000
just for once I'm glad to have gone MSI. I notice they also provided PS2 at the high end too. If they'd just help me with my driver issue instead of ignoring my posts maybe I wouldn't think they were so bad.
PS2 - why?
Output
Pfft, why resist? CAT could be considered a Moosekateer… :D
I like the ring of Moosekateer!
3dcandy
PS2 - why?
better for high end OC and more importantly for me - allows easy win7 install :D
ik9000
better for high end OC and more importantly for me - allows easy win7 install :D
Is it because of the lack of USB3 support ?
I think this is a positive move. But at the same time it feels like there is a game of double standards going on.
Sure, new buyers of B450 would get singed, but it’s still untold the longevity of the AM4 socket and compatibility with the number of CPUs it offers. These new buyers are also buying a chipset that is over a year old now and for what is ostensibly a very competitive price. AMD announce a cut off point and their fans are in uproar.
Switch to Intel… who change chipset almost every year, bring almost nothing to the table and just iterate and they get away with it. Look at the new 10th Gen stuff. Needs a new chipset, none of which come cheap like AMDs do. Why? Power delivery. The process node is the same. The core architecture is the same. There are scant or no new features even Gen4 PCI-E on these boards. Yet the costs of the boards and the chips are staggering. And where are the crowds in uproar about that? Neither to be seen or heard. And the joke is that Intel will still sell them hand over fist.
Just doesn’t seem fair that AMD are offering so much and yet still can’t get away with a cut off point on a very widely compatible product that is available at competitive prices.
Syphadeus
Just doesn’t seem fair that AMD are offering so much and yet still can’t get away with a cut off point on a very widely compatible product that is available at competitive prices.
“buy our boards, we don't screw you over like intel”
“Great, you bought our boards! Thanks! Anyone mind if we screw you over like intel?”
“Oh you do mind, ok ok we did say we wouldn't do that so we won't. Mostly. But you can't have your cake and eat it. We'll needlessly make it a one-way trip”
AMD made posts calling out Intel,and a lot of new buyers were converts from Intel fed up with what Intel was doing. So when AMD apparently did the same,they were OFC annoyed. The fact is AMD made vague statements and implications that they “were better” than the competition due to socket longevity,and they didn't release a mainstream chipset for Zen2.
AMD in July 2019
The alternative to this BIOS “problem,” which we find truly repugnant, is simply breaking socket compatibility with every new generation of CPU. Nobody can keep their old motherboard and upgrade, anymore. Nobody would ever have to worry about a BIOS update again… but they would also never get to keep their investment ever again. To us, that is not the right thing to do. It seems hostile and abusive to arbitrarily prevent users from keeping the same motherboard, which may cost a few hundred dollars, just to make the upgrade process a little “neater” on paper. So we do what we can to support in-socket upgrades as we have with Socket AM4.
Intel never has implied or stated they would maintain sockets,but AMD did.
Also,I think you underestimate how much negativity Intel has got over it's CFL lockouts too:
https://forums.hexus.net/cpus/380639-really-intel.htmlhttps://forums.hexus.net/hexus-news/386684-coffee-lake-cpus-stable-modded-100-200-series-chipsets.html
Apex
Is it because of the lack of USB3 support ?
yup. you either need a ps2 card or usb2 card. My usb2 card wouldn't play nicely however my ps2 card worked fine - so I could have done it with a board without native ps2, but it did make it easier to only have to keep swapping one of the two peripherals between uefi and windows.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Well from what Gamersnexus said about how interested OEMs were:
MSI>ASRock/Gigabyte>Asus.
My motherboard is Asus!! :surprised:
While I can believe ASUS weren't bothered how this all panned out, whether they embrace the new way forward is another thing entirely. They won't want to be singled out, and being the size they are may even have more resource to throw at it. My worry with Asus is the whole “you need to show you bought a Zen3 to get the Beta BIOS” thing. That involves attempting to interact with Asus support, something which from past experience fills me with dread.
What will be interesting is how the 32MB Bios chip boards get implemented. I notice that my X470-Pro CPU support list seems to include everything from the old Excavator based Athlons and APUs with no notes of any of them being removed. Now Gamer's Nexus said rather interestingly that the older chips can only address a 16MB boot rom, so I guess it is already a done deal that Asus and MSI at least can put the boot support for old chips in the lower half of the 32MB rom (so they only see a 16MB image) and only make the newer chips attempt to address the upper portion allowing a single ROM to cover all chips. So fingers crossed this gets rolled into a standard BIOS image.
I still think this is a double edged “damned if you do, damned if you don't” blade scenario.
Sure, the reasonably justified anger towards AMD was there because they said something, realised they couldn't do it the way it needed to be done, then got pulled up on a you said this and now you're doing this?
All this has done has moved the problem to some point in the future to the vagarity of future purchases and the secondhand market. If the manufacturers makes an x4xx board, which BIOS do they put on it? If they put an old BIOS it's not compatible with Zen 3 but if they put a new BIOS it breaks Zen/Zen+ support. All it's done is created a problem for someone else some time in the future. You want to buy that secondhand X470 Taichi board? Well you're dumb out of luck with that Zen+ processor you have!
I agree that AMD did not play this very well, but at the same time a lot of celebration of giving AMD a black eye is being had, it's a short term victory. AMD thought they could fix the small BIOS problem before Zen 3 came out I bet, failed and had to do a restriction, the restriction did fly in the face of previous statements but for a legitimate reasonable reason.
I get Cats comments and his crusade has been victorious and the likeness of AMDs original restriction to how Intel does things. But Intels board/chipset lockouts are for even more pathetic reasons than a BIOS chip. Frankly, i would expect AMDs turnaround was more because of the possible litigation that can be made against them.
Oh well.
Syphadeus
Just doesn’t seem fair that AMD are offering so much and yet still can’t get away with a cut off point on a very widely compatible product that is available at competitive prices.
It's not that they can't get away with it, as ik9000 touched on it's that they spent years throwing rocks at Intel and then acted in a similar anti-consumer manner, if you're going to accuse someone of something you'd best be damn sure you don't do something similar down the line, if you do it comes across as hypocrisy.
From a marketing perspective the whole support on AM4 thing was a good idea at the time but marketing probably got a bit carried away and should've talked to the technical side a bit more, they don't need to be throwing rocks at Intel any more as they have a good product so they should let it speak for itself.
Tabbykatze
If the manufacturers makes an x4xx board, which BIOS do they put on it?
They put on the old BIOS. The Zen 3 BIOS is described as a beta, not a release BIOS, so not something you can ship in a product.
*If* boards with 32MB roms can have this turned into a product, which depends on how much AMD have messed with the internals of their binary blob parts, then those boards could get support for all CPUs out of the box, but I don't think we have any idea how hard that is yet. Pretty much anything is possible in software, just some things aren't worth the development effort (no-one would care about a unified B450 BIOS if it takes so long we are all using 600 series chipsets anyway).
Frankly, i would expect AMDs turnaround was more because of the possible litigation that can be made against them.
Oh well.
AMD apparently announced this on Reddit. I think this was entirely about appeasing the enthusiast retail segment which while the OEM sector seems to be increasingly using Ryzen parts in their machines, currently if us lot walk away from using AMD chips their recovering economics will take a dive.
DanceswithUnix
They put on the old BIOS. The Zen 3 BIOS is described as a beta, not a release BIOS, so not something you can ship in a product.
*If* boards with 32MB roms can have this turned into a product, which depends on how much AMD have messed with the internals of their binary blob parts, then those boards could get support for all CPUs out of the box, but I don't think we have any idea how hard that is yet. Pretty much anything is possible in software, just some things aren't worth the development effort (no-one would care about a unified B450 BIOS if it takes so long we are all using 600 series chipsets anyway).
From what I understand, the blob partitioning of the 32MB BIOS effectively makes it so that Zen/Zen+ CPUs physically cannot read the BIOS anymore as they cannot address higher than 16MB. Frankly, that's where AMD screwed up by making Zen/Zen+ only able to address 16MB even though 32MB was already starting to become a bigger thing.
Yes, it's a beta BIOS but what happens if the customer wants to use Zen3? Do they send out a bootkit with it?
ik9000
“buy our boards, we don't screw you over like intel”
“Great, you bought our boards! Thanks! Anyone mind if we screw you over like intel?”
“Oh you do mind, ok ok we did say we wouldn't do that so we won't. Mostly. But you can't have your cake and eat it. We'll needlessly make it a one-way trip”
Aren’t you missing out some quite vital context?
“Buy our boards, we won’t screw you over like Intel” and for a long time they did not. They have offered unrivalled longevity for AM4. Yours is not a direct quote, nor will you find one, but if a consumer chooses to construe the inference of such hyperbole to mean that AM4 will be the only socket and compatible forever, then who is at fault? The party that insinuates in a marketing claim or the party that infers the hyper unrealistic?
“You bought our board, thanks!” OMG I feel so ripped off that my board with a year old chipset is not going to be compatible with as yet unannounced CPU SKUs that are not set to go on sale until the end of the year! How unreasonable! Given what AMD touted 2 to 3 years ago I expected to be forking out $150 for a board that would last me until at least Zen 12!
“We’ll needlessly make it a one way trip”. Define needless please. Because clearly it’s not a simple BIOS AGESA microcode update. This statement alone betrays an entitled attitude. If you have Zen 2 and want to put Zen 3 in, what does it matter that it’s a one way deal for most people? The rationale for doing it this way has been set out quite clearly by AMD so it doesn’t leave customers in a potentially no boot situation. The alternative is risk it and have loads of less tech savvy buyers with useless board and CPU combinations. The other alternative was to not concede and instead draw the line there.
Make no mistake, I’m not defending AMD. They’re a big tech company and they have dullards in their marketing department. If anything I agree that the suddenness of the compatibility drop was bad. They knew it all the time while selling B450 and having a comms blackout on the conspicuous lack of B550 info. But I believe in balance when considering these things and your comments are lacking in this area I feel.
Tabbykatze
From what I understand, the blob partitioning of the 32MB BIOS effectively makes it so that Zen/Zen+ CPUs physically cannot read the BIOS anymore as they cannot address higher than 16MB. Frankly, that's where AMD screwed up by making Zen/Zen+ only able to address 16MB even though 32MB was already starting to become a bigger thing.
Yes, it's a beta BIOS but what happens if the customer wants to use Zen3? Do they send out a bootkit with it?
A Zen/Zen+ cpu can happily use a 32MB BIOS, it can only see half of it. The trick would be to steer the older CPUs to only need that half of the BIOS. Note that AMD are expecting motherboards to only have a 16MB flash prom, so all their support must be well under 16MB to fit other things into a 16MB BIOS chip. So a 32MB chip can fit two of them.
Gamer's Nexus latest video says AMD are still considering whether they will allow boot kits for people who buy a 400 series board for a new Zen 3 CPU. If B550 pricing is sane, that should be a pretty rare need.
Edit: However people feel about whether/how much AMD mislead us in the past, I think it is fairly clear at this point that there are complexities in maintaining AM4 and it would take a pretty steep discount for me to consider pairing a Zen 3 CPU with a B450 board in a new build. If I do upgrade my X470 with a Zen 3, the pulled 3700X is going into a B550 at least to upgrade another machine.
Reminds me of fiddling with socket 775 Bios to make them accept socket 771 chips. I rancher them being stuffed with all manor of obscure CPU's. I just removed some of them and added the several 771 ones I had or thought I was likely to come across.
I don't see why they (mobo companies) can't offer multiple beta versions and you go through a wizard to get the one you need. Put what chip or family you have and what you want and there you go, then you have your old and new chips working.
They should be able to have the bios update detect what you have as well so no mess ups.
I don't believe the issue is that Zen/Zen+ cannot hjandle a 32MB bios, otherwise the new MAX B450 motherboards that advertise 32MB flash wouldn't support 1xxx and 2xxx chips, when they do.
Blaineoliver
I don't believe the issue is that Zen/Zen+ cannot hjandle a 32MB bios, otherwise the new MAX B450 motherboards that advertise 32MB flash wouldn't support 1xxx and 2xxx chips, when they do.
As does my X470 board which shipped with a 32MB BIOS from its first release, and seems to support every AM4 chip released.
DanceswithUnix
As does my X470 board which shipped with a 32MB BIOS from its first release, and seems to support every AM4 chip released.
exactly ! It all smells fishy to me. Especially when you add to that observation that the entirety of Gigabyte's Aorus x570 range only have 16MB chips. Anyone else finding this kind of smelling of something?
If/When this comes to pass I don't see how AMD loses.
They have more consumers for their chips.
pp05
If/When this comes to pass I don't see how AMD loses.
They have more consumers for their chips.
what wrankles is this “irreversible path” line. So if I had an X470 with ryzen 2700 say, I buy the 4900x for a processor lift. Then I get an x770 board when DDR5 comes out and stick the 4900 in that. Now I want to use the x470 for a NAS server but I can't put the 2700 back in it? What's the point?
DanceswithUnix
While I can believe ASUS weren't bothered how this all panned out, whether they embrace the new way forward is another thing entirely. They won't want to be singled out, and being the size they are may even have more resource to throw at it. My worry with Asus is the whole “you need to show you bought a Zen3 to get the Beta BIOS” thing. That involves attempting to interact with Asus support, something which from past experience fills me with dread.
What will be interesting is how the 32MB Bios chip boards get implemented. I notice that my X470-Pro CPU support list seems to include everything from the old Excavator based Athlons and APUs with no notes of any of them being removed. Now Gamer's Nexus said rather interestingly that the older chips can only address a 16MB boot rom, so I guess it is already a done deal that Asus and MSI at least can put the boot support for old chips in the lower half of the 32MB rom (so they only see a 16MB image) and only make the newer chips attempt to address the upper portion allowing a single ROM to cover all chips. So fingers crossed this gets rolled into a standard BIOS image.
The Asus B450i/X470i Strix have 32MB BIOS chips,so I hope my motherboard gets an update! ;) Also with a 6+1 phase VRM,the B450 version had one of the best B450 VRM setups too.
ik9000
what wrankles is this “irreversible path” line. So if I had an X470 with ryzen 2700 say, I buy the 4900x for a processor lift. Then I get an x770 board when DDR5 comes out and stick the 4900 in that. Now I want to use the x470 for a NAS server but I can't put the 2700 back in it? What's the point?
You would have to flash an older BIOS somehow…
I see the point but it's not hampered a lot of people over the years - many would sell the processor and mobo together if that's the case.
I see what you're saying but there are numerous ways around it… plus that's overkill for a NAS sire ;)
3dcandy
You would have to flash an older BIOS somehow…
I see the point but it's not hampered a lot of people over the years - many would sell the processor and mobo together if that's the case.
I see what you're saying but there are numerous ways around it… plus that's overkill for a NAS sire ;)
hypotheticals - but AMD
are saying
it will not be possible to go back to an older bios. Why not?
Apparently the low level flash will increase the chance of bricking the board. More RMA etc etc so not a great business model. Usb flash etc may or may not work.
I watched the gamersnexus vid. I don't really know much :/
Syphadeus
“Buy our boards, we won’t screw you over like Intel” and for a long time they did not. They have offered unrivalled longevity for AM4. Yours is not a direct quote, nor will you find one, but if a consumer chooses to construe the inference of such hyperbole to mean that AM4 will be the only socket and compatible forever, then who is at fault? The party that insinuates in a marketing claim or the party that infers the hyper unrealistic?
They didn't say forever though, they said until the end of 2020 (or was it 21), then that changed to through 2020, and then it changed to we sort of, kind of, meant the socket not the chipsets.
Personally i don't really care what they said but i can understand why people were peeved as they were lead to believe an AM4 board bought on day one would work with the last processors to support AM4, whether they should've is sort of besides the point as most people aren't as sceptical as you or I and they tend to take what they're told at face value.
If we apply the same logic to Intel they've supported the same socket for the last 4 years.
Corky34
They didn't say forever though, they said until the end of 2020 (or was it 21), then that changed to through 2020, and then it changed to we sort of, kind of, meant the socket not the chipsets.
Personally i don't really care what they said but i can understand why people were peeved as they were lead to believe an AM4 board bought on day one would work with the last processors to support AM4, whether they should've is sort of besides the point as most people aren't as sceptical as you or I and they tend to take what they're told at face value.
If we apply the same logic to Intel they've supported the same socket for the last 4 years.
TBF,AMD did tell a German system integrator called Schenker,that its B450 based laptops would work with Zen3. Not just any laptops,the only laptop with a Ryzen 9 3950X and a RTX2070,ie,the most powerful AMD based laptop on the market. Then they found out the same day as us,it wouldn't work! ;)
Look at the statement I posted from them in post 28.
Senior AMD people were on Reddit in the last year,and could see what people were saying regarding the B450 motherboards. No wonder after those kind of statements and AMD not saying anything for 12 months,did people think everything was fine.
If AMD had said,we can't guarantee Zen3 compatibility on B450/X470 at launch,but X570 will work fine,then at least it would have been easier to navigate any negativity. Then main problem was probably all the new converts to AM4 since the Zen2 launch on B450 based mainstream motherboards.
A lot of AMD fans were being utterly obtuse,acting like 100% of Zen buyers bought a motherboard in 2017 at launch and started with a first generation Zen based CPU. Somebody who bought a B350/X370 motherboard in 2017 did very well and got 4 generations of CPUs.
The whole “but,but it had 100 generations of CPUs already” is practically pointless,as most Zen2 buyers in the last year would have been on B450 in 2019/2020,ie,one generation of CPUs. For them the fact Bristol Ridge,or first generation Zen was supported was of no use to them.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Yes,but now motherboard makers need to do the support. Let's see if Asus gets on it! ;)
:D
:clapping:
Well from what Gamersnexus said about how interested OEMs were:
MSI>ASRock/Gigabyte>Asus.
My motherboard is Asus!! :surprised:
Hello Again!
MSI would naturally be more enthusiastic about it as they have the JSPI1 header on the motherboard(s) making it relatively easy to flash the chip (diy solutions also exist making it easy to backup the “old” bios fully before going for the update). Don't know about Asrock* but Gigabyte could make use of the Dual Bios feature on supported boards whereas ASUS having limited** flashing header support across the range might also find it difficult to program the chip(s) directly if needed (relevant for updating inventory and relevant for recovering from failed or unneeded updates)! Anyhow, it would be interesting to see all of them try!
Regards,
Ahmed
Edit(s):
*Yes, they have the BIOS_PH header for easier bios flashing as well!
** might not be that limited, haven't looked at all of the models … might be wanting to avoid extra work
ahmedfarazch
Hello Again!
MSI would naturally be more enthusiastic about it as they have the JSPI1 header on the motherboard(s) making it relatively easy to flash the chip (diy solutions also exist making it easy to backup the “old” bios fully before going for the update). Don't know about Asrock* but Gigabyte could make use of the Dual Bios feature on supported boards whereas ASUS having limited** flashing header support across the range might also find it difficult to program the chip(s) directly if needed (relevant for updating inventory and relevant for recovering from failed or unneeded updates)! Anyhow, it would be interesting to see all of them try!
Regards,
Ahmed
Edit(s):
*Yes, they have the BIOS_PH header for easier bios flashing as well!
** might not be that limited, haven't looked at all of the models … might be wanting to avoid extra work
Thanks for the information. My motherboard even though it is an Asus B450,does actually have a larger 32MB BIOS chip,but I do find it sad that dual BIOS isn't a standard thing on motherboards now. It is something which has existed for a very long time. Saw your earlier comment too,it would be nice to move to a more modern hardware implement of the BIOS,which is more flexible. It's not like flash memory is expensive either.
3dcandy
… plus that's overkill for a NAS sire ;)
Depends whether you expect your NAS to run a few virtual machines which is pretty common these days. My next machine update is for our home server and my spare 2200G seems underpowered (as well as lacks ECC ram).
ik9000
hypotheticals - but AMD are saying it will not be possible to go back to an older bios. Why not?
I'm sure it must be possible, but I think AMD are being very careful about setting expectation. Probably trying to put people off as well.
ik9000
exactly ! It all smells fishy to me. Especially when you add to that observation that the entirety of Gigabyte's Aorus x570 range only have 16MB chips. Anyone else finding this kind of smelling of something?
I do wonder what triggered this. My best guess would be slipping DDR5 volume release dates.
When Zen1 came out we were told Am4 would last until 2020 when DDR5 would force a socket change. That's pushed out to 2021/22 so we are probably looking at a Zen3+ or Zen4 extending AM4 well past it's expected best before date.
Looking at the only uATX X570 board I can find (ITX has more options, but too expensive and I need two plug in cards) it has a 32MB rom and a tiny supported CPU list even by 16MB standards. I have to ask, what the heck do they need all that space for?
DanceswithUnix
I do wonder what triggered this. My best guess would be slipping DDR5 volume release dates.
When Zen1 came out we were told Am4 would last until 2020 when DDR5 would force a socket change. That's pushed out to 2021/22 so we are probably looking at a Zen3+ or Zen4 extending AM4 well past it's expected best before date.
Looking at the only uATX X570 board I can find (ITX has more options, but too expensive and I need two plug in cards) it has a 32MB rom and a tiny supported CPU list even by 16MB standards. I have to ask, what the heck do they need all that space for?
they don't. It's the space for the NSA exploits… I mean err :vacant:
'[GSV
Trig;4209808'] unless they wipe the board totally and it will ONLY support Zen3, in which case how will a board react if you flash a BIOS that removes support for the CPU you have in the board when you flash it…
Quite simple, the flash succeeds and the board continues to work till you reboot/powercycle. Then all you get is a blackscreen and maybe some nondescript beep concert till you drop the new (now supported) CPU in.
This is exactly what happened with the
ASRock AB350M-Pro4 in my mums PC. The most recent BIOS updates (6.0 and newer) dropped support for all old APUs (Bristol and Raven Ridge), all Zen (Summit Ridge) and Zen+ (Pinnacle Ridge) CPUs in order to make room in the BIOS chip to support Zen 2 CPUs (Matisse) and Picasso APUs (R3 3200G, R5 3400G and the like).
However, you can (with a trick) go back to a BIOS version pre-6.0 which will support all the older CPUs/APUs but not Matisse and Picasso if you really need to. Drawback is that you obviously need to have a supported CPU no matter if you want to down or upgrade the BIOS.
ahmedfarazch
- AMD processors older than “Matisse” can only access 16MB of flash
Unless something changed dramatically that I'm not aware of, the southbridge deals with the BIOS chip, not the CPU itself Oo
And as for AMD saying “you won't be able to downgrade the BIOS”…. nothing a SPI flasher can't fix if you really need to (CH341A USB thingie and the like). I'm expecting BIOS modders to take on the challenge of cobbling together BIOSes that support multiple generations (incl. Zen3), even if that requires replacing the SPI flash on the board with a larger one (which is usually easy to do, unless the board manufacturer used a stupid BGA version of the flash chip)
Bambooz
Unless something changed dramatically that I'm not aware of, the southbridge deals with the BIOS chip, not the CPU itself Oo
AM4 is an SoC platform, the chipset isn't a south bridge but more of an IO expander. If you get an A300 or A320 motherboard, it doesn't have any chipset at all, everything is done by the CPU.
I suspect they will change that once the 4000 series actually lands and we can buy stuff…
