Bit annoying (not for me personally though) but it does sound like the kind of issue that a few pre-500 MBs will be able to handle and a few others can be bodged into working… shame for the majority of boards though.
Biggest news here for me is that Biostar are still producing motherboards. I thought they'd died out.
it is understandable, you can't keep on pouring water into the glass, however some stuff gets outdated and you start a new chain of events with the next generations, if they keep what they been doing now then stuff is going to last for quite a while in general but with leaps… compared to Intel who need a new chipset and motherboard for whatever they make.
I wonder if any manufacturers are brave enough to release a Zen 3 only BIOS
I bet the modders out there will - or remove Zen1 and a few others and keep Zen2 and 3 so you have a choice
And what's to stop AMD letting motherboard manufacturors release 2 bios, one for support of older chips and one for newer chips with both having a “Generic” slot so that you can flash either and have the mobo at least boot as say it need a different bios for the inserted cpu and allow you to flash it?
zaph0d
And what's to stop AMD letting motherboard manufacturors release 2 bios, one for support of older chips and one for newer chips with both having a “Generic” slot so that you can flash either and have the mobo at least boot as say it need a different bios for the inserted cpu and allow you to flash it?
Because they would surely incur the wrath of AMD
TBH This doesn't bother me much, I buy a cpu and motherboard together and only replace one due to being faulty or compatibility (had to replace one in the past due to lack of driver support :()…. compared with intel they're still far better in terms of longevity in most cases.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the 4xx MB's able to use the next gen cpu if i'm honest but I suspect the main reason for the change is pcie4 which is only supported from 5xx MB's. Having to support a pcie3 and pcie4 in the same code would ultimately add bloat etc, not to mention more ‘work’.
LSG501
TBH This doesn't bother me much, I buy a cpu and motherboard together and only replace one due to being faulty or compatibility (had to replace one in the past due to lack of driver support :()…. compared with intel they're still far better in terms of longevity in most cases.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the 4xx MB's able to use the next gen cpu if i'm honest but I suspect the main reason for the change is pcie4 which is only supported from 5xx MB's. Having to support a pcie3 and pcie4 in the same code would ultimately add bloat etc, not to mention more ‘work’.
The B550 MB chipset doesn't actually touch any of the PCIe 4.0 stuff, all they're doing is rating the traces between CPU and GPU/storage to fully use the PCIe 4.0 controller on the CPU (PCIe is also fully backwards compatible so X570 already supports 4.0, 3.0, and 1.0)
more importantly how is the x670 coming along?
You would have thought rolling support would have made more sense than drawing a line. Maybe some pressure from motherboard manufacturers to actually sell some new boards and bit having to endlessly support the old ones. Who knows?
Was getting very close to pulling the trigger on a 3600 + B450m but not really in a rush so will wait a month or two and consider the options.
Xlucine
The B550 MB chipset doesn't actually touch any of the PCIe 4.0 stuff, all they're doing is rating the traces between CPU and GPU/storage to fully use the PCIe 4.0 controller on the CPU (PCIe is also fully backwards compatible so X570 already supports 4.0, 3.0, and 1.0)
Just need to go to ratemytraces.com. Cor, look at the copper on that!
OK, it's been a long week and I'm helping the wife use up some wine.
jimbouk
You would have thought rolling support would have made more sense than drawing a line. Maybe some pressure from motherboard manufacturers to actually sell some new boards and bit having to endlessly support the old ones. Who knows?
Was getting very close to pulling the trigger on a 3600 + B450m but not really in a rush so will wait a month or two and consider the options.
Probably not so much the MB makers, AMD have to cut the support code for this stuff. Their support matrix must be getting a tad out of hand, I can imaging them trying to reign it in and push that out to the MB makers in their AGESA packages.
Xlucine
The B550 MB chipset doesn't actually touch any of the PCIe 4.0 stuff, all they're doing is rating the traces between CPU and GPU/storage to fully use the PCIe 4.0 controller on the CPU (PCIe is also fully backwards compatible so X570 already supports 4.0, 3.0, and 1.0)
While pcie4 is backwards compatible that doesn't mean the code for it would also work with a pcie3 only board. I'm not a coder but they could need a completely different set of code to support pci3 versus pcie4.
In all honesty though (should have really said this earlier lol) it's likely more about motherboard manufacturers putting a little pressure on AMD due to people not buying the ‘new stuff’ and/or just reusing old boards, that's got to be hitting their profit margins.
LSG501
While pcie4 is backwards compatible that doesn't mean the code for it would also work with a pcie3 only board. I'm not a coder but they could need a completely different set of code to support pci3 versus pcie4.
I am an embedded software guy happy on the software/hardware boundary. PCIe isn't a software feature, it will be about hardware feature enabling. So in line with any well designed system I would expect the Zen2 PCIe hardware to be an extension of the earlier hardware or you end up in a hell of driver/hardware/platform/OS combinations.
Also as Xlucine says, the PCIe4 lanes here are straight from the CPU onto the motherboard card sockets without touching the chipset.
So this is just policy, someone has decided this for some politics reason.
In all honesty though (should have really said this earlier lol) it's likely more about motherboard manufacturers putting a little pressure on AMD due to people not buying the ‘new stuff’ and/or just reusing old boards, that's got to be hitting their profit margins.
It could be that motherboard makers don't want to dredge up all their old motherboards (again) and re-test with new CPU/ram combinations to update the QVL list. I don't like the idea, but I could understand that. I don't think CPU upgrades are damaging though, as those old CPUs aren't just going straight to landfill. The old replaced CPU from an upgrade is likely to end up in a new system, so overall motherboard sales have to be roughly in line with CPU sales. Re-using an old CPU “for now” with the possibility of updating to something newer later works better if all AM4 cpus work in all AM4 sockets as it builds confidence that you should invest in a motherboard to soak up that old chip.
Makes sense this will need to happen at some steps.
Still happy as each chipset will probably support 3 generations.
If my x570 + 3700x combo was made by intel I would need an x670 for a 4700x without a doubt.
LSG501
While pcie4 is backwards compatible that doesn't mean the code for it would also work with a pcie3 only board. I'm not a coder but they could need a completely different set of code to support pci3 versus pcie4.
In all honesty though (should have really said this earlier lol) it's likely more about motherboard manufacturers putting a little pressure on AMD due to people not buying the ‘new stuff’ and/or just reusing old boards, that's got to be hitting their profit margins.
You have a different BIOS for B450 and B550 boards. Right now everyone with a zen2 chip on any chipset below X570 (and there's a lot on this forum) is happily connecting the PCIe 4.0 chipset link in zen2 with the PCIe 3.0 chipset with zero ill effects.
You're right about the profit - benefit of the intel model is you can sell two things each upgrade cycle rather than one
AMD for the last 12 months made sure there was no B550 release,so pushed most of the mainstream users to buy B450. So those people have one generation of updates.
Now they are making up excuses to say it does not work,which for me is no better than Intel. A lot of Zen2 owners will be in the same boat as Intel users,but on many forums Intel threads were trolled by people pointing out Intel has no “upgrade path”. The irony! :D
A few things AMD has conveniently ignored. There is a huge list on Reddit of motherboard specifications:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/c1dnu3/x570x470x370b450b350a320_am4socket_motherboards/A lot of X570 motherboards have 16MB BIOS chips,which is the same as cheaper B450 motherboards. Conversely better quality B450/X470 motherboards have 32MB BIOS chips like high end X570 motherboards.
Many motherboards such as ones from MSI have a BIOS flashback feature,ie,they don't need a CPU to work. So you don't need a big BIOS with lots of CPU support.
There is also no real reason for the lack of B450 compatibility:
https://videocardz.com/newz/schenker-xmg-expects-amd-ryzen-4000-vermeer-desktop-cpus-to-be-compatible-with-b450-chipsetSchenker,a German OEM, said B450 only need some microcode updates to work,and industry sources in Taiwan were saying B450 should work too(China Times,etc) even in April.
They have taken since June/July last year to actually get the accompanying mainstream chipset for Zen2 to be releaased. They used vague marketing to imply Zen3 would work,you had OEMs such as Schenker saying all was needed was microcode updates,had lots of people saying Zen3 should work.
What did they do?? Just kept quiet,because they knew if they told people B450 would not work beyond Zen2,and you needed an X570 they would lose sales to Intel. They would not have a platform advantage on mainstream compared to Intel,and if you had to buy an X570 motherboard,you could probably get a better Intel CPU for gaming with a cheaper motherboard. For things such as gaming Intel is still better even if it is marginal.
This reminds me of what happened with socket 754,and AM2,AM3,FM1 and FM2.
Also HUB has actually did some checking.
Also for me,the B550 is probably going to be short lived. AMD will be moving to Zen4 in 2022,and probably DDR5. They will probably double cores,and I expect DDR4 will become a bottleneck,even if Zen4 uses a hybrid DDR4/DDR5 memory controller. We saw this with the Phenom II X6,which really required DDR3 to get the best out of it,even if those CPUs could work with DDR2.
So at this point probably might as well skip Zen3,and keep your existing Zen+ or Zen2 CPU,as you would need to buy a new CPU and motherboard anyway,and the 400 series motherboards will probably lose a lot of value. Don't get me wrong Zen3 will probably be decent,but I would rather wait for DDR5.
Xlucine
You're right about the profit - benefit of the intel model is you can sell two things each upgrade cycle rather than one
Hmm, if Asmedia are making the B550 chip as rumoured, then AMD has no skin in that game and are only going to sell one chip per upgrade cycle anyway. But compatibility could be a part of a contract made with Asmedia, so perhaps Asmedia are calling the shots here.
I still think it CPU upgrading doesn't hurt though. I had been considering getting a B450 board for my spare 2200G, but lack up upgrade path to Zen 3 puts me off. OTOH, If I hold out for B550 to get the upgrade path, there is no current APU that will run in it including my 2200G? So no sale, of anything. I'll wait.
DanceswithUnix
Hmm, if Asmedia are making the B550 chip as rumoured, then AMD has no skin in that game and are only going to sell one chip per upgrade cycle anyway. But compatibility could be a part of a contract made with Asmedia, so perhaps Asmedia are calling the shots here.
I still think it CPU upgrading doesn't hurt though. I had been considering getting a B450 board for my spare 2200G, but lack up upgrade path to Zen 3 puts me off. OTOH, If I hold out for B550 to get the upgrade path, there is no current APU that will run in it including my 2200G? So no sale, of anything. I'll wait.
AMD probably buys the bits from various companies,certifies them and sells them onto the motherboard OEMs?? They probably do make a cut out of the motherboards.
TBH,sometimes I wonder whether a console is less hassle! :P
I am sad my only path of upgrade on my motherboard are threadriooer 2, anything newer and i will have to fork over money again for a new motherboard and CPU.
Looking back i really think i paid too much for my motherboard then,,,,, wayyyy to much as its a top of the line model.
Gentle Viking;4205026
I am sad my only path of upgrade on my motherboard are threadriooer 2, anything newer and i will have to fork over money again for a new motherboard and CPU.
Looking back i really think i paid too much for my motherboard then,,,,, wayyyy to much as its a top of the line model.
Oh,yes AMD also did the same to X399 owners too. That is another one to add to the list. Commiserations! :(
Pretty annoying… was really looking forward to a Ryzen 4000 in my existing mobo :(
Looks like our only hope is the motherboard manufacturers going rogue, but that seems like expecting turkeys to vote for Xmas.
zaph0d
And what's to stop AMD letting motherboard manufacturors release 2 bios, one for support of older chips and one for newer chips with both having a “Generic” slot so that you can flash either and have the mobo at least boot as say it need a different bios for the inserted cpu and allow you to flash it?
Because it isn't down to purely the manufacturers of the boards.
But because AMD have to produce the code that they use as a base.
If the board partners decide to go their own way with that, then that will be unofficial support and that board cannot be sold being described as supporting the CPUs.
Who will then buy it for those CPUs when nowhere on its marketing, spec sheets etc can it be mentioned that support is there.
And then there will be the issue of consistency without an equal base for them all to start with.
AMD also miscommunicated to OEMs! The German OEM I mentioned earlier,just updated their own Reddit thread. So all their B450 systems are now in limbo.
The OEM had to find out from the official news release,that it didn't work! AMD had told them through official channels B450 would work.
look even on a x370 you could use the bios .. you just cut out the crap ..
basically over write all the stuff you don't need ..
just make it so it can only use zen3 and no other chip .. loads of room ..
People are wondering why Intel and Nvidia are so over-represented in prebuilt systems…there is your answer. If a system integrator is told one thing through official channels,and then has to hear news contradicting that from the media,how can these companies really plan ahead?? If Intel and Nvidia can provide more solid and more consistent information,integrators will stay with them.
I know my X399 chipset would not be able to handle some of the new things in the new threadrippers, but i am good with that too, to a large degree at least.
Say i wanted to update to TR3, i could just plop it in my TR4 socket and use what it and the X399 can do, and then save up some pennies and maybe in a few months get a TR40 or whatever they are called motherboards to enjoy all my new CPU can do. ( in which case i would have to buy more new stuff to unlock that , like a new faster nvme drive and GFX card if i wanted to unlock all the new features )
But as it is now i an forced to save pennies hard, and then go CPU and mobo too, in which case it might be wiser to buy another brand, at least having to get both in one go open up for that avenue, something a partly upgrade would not do, and you keep your costumer “locked” into your brand.
Of course if the TR3 processors absolutely must have a new socket as it have more pins, then i get it just fine but i am not sure the new TR3 processors have more pins ? ( not looking much into hardware ATM as i sort of have what i need and i have lost my geekness edge )
Also noticed that it looks like B550 won't support Ryzen 2000 series chips, which seems odd…
Loving this thread, I think this is a very interesting discussion
This just proves it: you can please all the people some of the time, you can lease some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.
I mean, at this rate, AMD socket longevity is about 3 or 4 times or years that of Intel (which I would say is about the average time many enthusiasts get the upgrade itch with big enough improvements to justify it), at a platform cost that's usually appreciably lower and yet there are some who still expect a commercial entity looking for profits to indefinitely support…everything for every product cycle. Forgetting also that AMD has just 12k in employees for both CPU and GPU operations compared to the 110k for Intel.
Come on now - at some point, they've got to be given the benefit of the doubt…
Draylax
This just proves it: you can please all the people some of the time, you can lease some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.
I mean, at this rate, AMD socket longevity is about 3 or 4 times or years that of Intel (which I would say is about the average time many enthusiasts get the upgrade itch with big enough improvements to justify it), at a platform cost that's usually appreciably lower and yet there are some who still expect a commercial entity looking for profits to indefinitely support…everything for every product cycle. Forgetting also that AMD has just 12k in employees for both CPU and GPU operations compared to the 110k for Intel.
Come on now - at some point, they've got to be given the benefit of the doubt…
For Zen2,AMD won't release the B550 until next month. For 12 months after the Zen2 launch the B450 was the mainstream Zen2 chipset,and that is their fault entirely.Most people who have a Zen2 CPU,have a B450 motherboard which now is EOL after one generation of CPUs. Most OEM systems use a B450.
AMD kept quiet for 12 months,and didn't tell anyone Zen3 wouldn't work with B450,and even said contradicting things to system integrators in the channel,who were taken back when they heard the press release.
So even their partners don't get a proper message,which was originally B450 would be fine. They have pulled this crap before,with socket 754,AM2,AM3,FM1 and FM2 too. I remember back in the Athlon 64 days,when they saw a smidgen of success they also started acting like Intel. These companies are only nice to you,when it suits them.
Even the whole BIOS excuse is on them too - AMD has a reference specification for the platform,so they should set minimum BIOS chip sizes. Even many X570 motherboards still use 16MB BIOS chips.
Their PR,went along with the whole platform spiel,and if they had just basically told people last year,none of this would have happened. They should have functional PR who actually is factual instead of stringing people along,with vague statements.
Both Intel and Nvidia get criticised a lot for the stunts they pull,and AMD does not get a free pass either!
I get the impression X570 wasn't quite the smooth product development that AMD will have wanted - having to use Zen IOH as the motherboard chipset seems a bit overkill and the problems with PCIe4 controllers (necessitating using that IOH) look like they persist (or Intel wouldn't still be on PCIe3 for their latest).
At this point a lot of people probably put Zen 2 on 400 series, so AMD might need to shift more inventory of 500 series and/or justify non-trivial development of other 500 series products.
The situation with B550 and chipset/PCIe4 cooling will be interesting - are they going to use Zen IOH again or have they managed to get a third party chipset working? If B550 is passive then it might even more more attractive than X570.
Just seen the entry cost of an ITX X570 board on Scan is £220 and up. OOF.
Anandtech seem to think it won't be much cheaper on B550?
Forward or backward compatability of a motherboard has never been an issue for me. I buy the motherboard/CPU combo I'm happy with at the time and 4-5 years later upgrade both. I really have no expectations from manufacturers in this regard. If there is some longevity in compatability for newer CPUs, I treat it as a bonus because just as I haven't wanted/needed to change the CPU sooner, you never know?
Could it have anything to do with X370 and x470 B450 having win7 drivers and support and they just don't want to have to issue any drivers for those older boards that people can hack to get win7 working on ryzen 3 chips (like they have with ryzen2+ on x570)
ik9000
Could it have anything to do with X370 and x470 B450 having win7 drivers and support and they just don't want to have to issue any drivers for those older boards that people can hack to get win7 working on ryzen 3 chips (like they have with ryzen2+ on x570)
They told a system integrator that it would work. Now the same system integrator had to hear about the news the same way we all have. It makes me wonder whether MSI was told the same,so released the newer B450 MAX line in 2H 2019 for the same reason. HUB in a video said they would not release microcode(apparently),then they told Tech Deals,they could make it work,but it would lead to confusion,so won't.
The whole thing is a typical AMD PR masterclass. Look at how they messed up the 5600XT launch with their BIOS problems.
kalniel
I get the impression X570 wasn't quite the smooth product development that AMD will have wanted - having to use Zen IOH as the motherboard chipset seems a bit overkill and the problems with PCIe4 controllers (necessitating using that IOH) look like they persist (or Intel wouldn't still be on PCIe3 for their latest).
At this point a lot of people probably put Zen 2 on 400 series, so AMD might need to shift more inventory of 500 series and/or justify non-trivial development of other 500 series products.
The situation with B550 and chipset/PCIe4 cooling will be interesting - are they going to use Zen IOH again or have they managed to get a third party chipset working? If B550 is passive then it might even more more attractive than X570.
It's made by ASMedia like the previous chipsets. This is the first leaked low end OEM B550 motherboard:
Feet firmly on both sides of this argument I reckon they are damned if the do and damned if they don't…
You want latest and greatest cpu and io - get a Zen 3 and 500 series mobo. Don't want the cutting edge - then there are plenty of Zen 2 chips and B450 mobos out there for you too. I'm still on a 2700X and 2600's here on B450 as they were the best I could get within my budget. They aren't suddenly going to be rubbish! If you really want to put a new cpu in and not use it to the fullest that's your problem - but AMD are on a roll and want to hammer home the advantage. As said the others have pulled this stunt many times…
3dcandy
Feet firmly on both sides of this argument I reckon they are damned if the do and damned if they don't…
You want latest and greatest cpu and io - get a Zen 3 and 500 series mobo. Don't want the cutting edge - then there are plenty of Zen 2 chips and B450 mobos out there for you too. I'm still on a 2700X and 2600's here on B450 as they were the best I could get within my budget. They aren't suddenly going to be rubbish! If you really want to put a new cpu in and not use it to the fullest that's your problem - but AMD are on a roll and want to hammer home the advantage. As said the others have pulled this stunt many times…
You like me have had our systems much longer than people who upgraded after Zen2 was launched. The problem is AMD held back the B550 from OEMs,who from all reports I heard really wanted to have the B550 out. This forced many OEMs to release refreshed B450 motherboards and new models after Zen2 was released,and cost them money.
With X570 being over £180 for quite a while,it meant almost all Zen2 owners and most prebuilt Zen2 systems use B450 motherboards.All X570 motherboards had active cooling which was noisy under load and the fans will probably wear out as they are tiny. There were practical reasons for not getting a X570 motherboard too. The mainstream users get a one generation upgrade,whilst AMD was actively promoting its upgradeability over Intel. So AMD has made a big F U to the majority of their own customers.
In the end the fault lies at the feet of AMD,for not releasing a new mainstream chipset for Zen2 last year. Then they kept quiet to not only DIY builders,but told some system integrators that it would work until this week. Then they started saying porkies about BIOS chip limitations, when it was quite clear many X570 motherboards have the same sized BIOS chips as B450/X470 motherboards,and many have bigger BIOS chips,and a number have CPUless BIOS flashing.
This should not be defended in anyway. AMD has no right to get a free pass,as Intel and Nvidia certainly don't get one either. I remember even when Zen was released,everyone was blaming the OEMs,reviewers,etc. I was arguing with many when I said it's their fault really,as they should know how to work with their own partners and reviewers. Nothing has changed it appears! :(
Aye Cat I hear ya…
But I still think they are erring on caution - even maybe too much. They still need to be cheaper however compelling the product just because they aren't Intel. Same as on the graphics side. And this causes particular issues. Yep they could have been better, but then so could Intel, NV, Qualcomm Apple et al.
They've managed a decent amount of stability recently. This is kinda a minor issue in the grand scheme of things for the majority of people
It looks like another rumour has cropped up. AMD will release new Zen2 models with a slight clockspeed bump,and apparently its locked only to 500 series chipsets. Looks like the majority of Zen2 owners will be also screwed if this is true,so a major issue here,so they are copying Intel style segmentation tactics. In fact actually worse as Intel NEVER blocked the Core i7 4790K and Core i7 7700K from earlier motherboards.
What was reported in this thread was actually leaked last week,so lets see if this new rumour is true.
With Intel being ahead in gaming,it actually makes sense for mainstream buyers,probably to look at their new range with SMT too. As Intel overclocks better,an overclocked K series CPU,will probably cost less than getting a B550/X570 with Zen2,and then Zen3 anyway. As AMD obviously has given up now on actually bothering to keep longer socket lifespan,I think that “advantage” needs to be thrown out. There is nothing stopping AMD releasing a X670 and B650 with Zen3 and saying 500 series motherboards have lesser functionality,or lower performance.
They have gone back to what they did before,ie, socket 754,AM2,AM3,FM1 and FM2.
Edit!!
https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1258943571517833216Hardware Unboxed
Missed opportunity for some misleading marketing from Intel.
:D
Second Edit:
Apparently someone decompiled the BIOS of their X370 motherboard,which supports Bristol Ridge to Zen2:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/gfugqr/i_just_opened_the_last_asus_bios_for_the_x370/It's well under 16MB.8MB~11MB for BIOSes.
I bought my first AMD setup (1600AF and B450 Aorus Pro) a couple of weeks ago with the idea that I'd basically have an upgrade path on this mobo upto and including Zen3 when Zen4(?) is released. Having Zen2 as the last option is pretty disappointing.
Sorry all if I'm out of the loop on Zen 3 CPU's but when will the next wave hitting or are expected too?
Was just looking to upgrade too but if they're around the corner I'll wait another month or two, thanks.
UseItNow
Sorry all if I'm out of the loop on Zen 3 CPU's but when will the next wave hitting or are expected too?
Was just looking to upgrade too but if they're around the corner I'll wait another month or two, thanks.
Zen3 is probably end of the year or early next year.
If you need to do a mainstream build now I would wait,until the end of June for the B550 motherboards as AMD says they are compatible. However,all of these claims usually have disclaimers,so none of us know if AMD won't release a B650 or X670 for Zen3(even if they deny it now),and make certain features only work on the newer motherboard. If you intend to do a Zen3 build,I would wait until Zen3 is released,and see the situation at that point.
HacKage
I bought my first AMD setup (1600AF and B450 Aorus Pro) a couple of weeks ago with the idea that I'd basically have an upgrade path on this mobo upto and including Zen3 when Zen4(?) is released. Having Zen2 as the last option is pretty disappointing.
I'm sure you aren't the only one in that situation.
The more I think about it, this is all about the B450. My B350 boards, well they are dated enough that I can kind of shrug those off. Similarly I have had the X470 board in this home machine for some time now, so slight disappointment that it can't be upgraded but then the 3700X in it right now I was expecting to last me anyway.
But the B450 board I bought last week, that stings. And the three bought at work 2 months ago. Those were the latest mid range spec at the time of purchase.
At work we have a couple of B350 motherboards and all sorts of B450 motherboards, A couple of those are pre-built engineering workstation machines where overclocking and PCIe4 graphics are meaningless so B450 seemed the best option. Had I known the upgrade path was limited, I would have gotten them with X570 boards instead. Had the B550 board not been horribly delayed, they would no doubt have used those.
Not AMD's finest hour.
I think it's beyond poor personally. AM4 can easily work they just need to make it so. Come on AMD, don't be di..intel about this. It's not hard to do pairs of BIOS versions to suit different generations of CPUs if the only limitation is the on-board memory for the BIOS. Particularly with the current global economy looking like it's going to the dogs. Maybe that's the issue, they want to force expenditure that might not otherwise come? Bit shortsighted if you ask me! Support people at times like this and you get loyalty for a lot longer. This approach they're taking undermines so much goodwill.
ik9000
I think it's beyond poor personally. AM4 can easily work they just need to make it so. Come on AMD, don't be di..intel about this. It's not hard to do pairs of BIOS versions to suit different generations of CPUs if the only limitation is the on-board memory for the BIOS. Particularly with the current global economy looking like it's going to the dogs. Maybe that's the issue, they want to force expenditure that might not otherwise come? Bit shortsighted if you ask me! Support people at times like this and you get loyalty for a lot longer. This approach they're taking undermines so much goodwill.
What is even worse is the AMD fans on forums(like Reddit and not Hexus BTW) now falling on their swords defending AMD on this. These people are still piddling on Intel everytime someone mentions their CPUs,and still saying Intel has limited socket lifespan,which is funny as AMD isn't always ahead in pure performance for things such as gaming. The amount of cognitive dissonance is hilarious. It reminds me of the Athlon 64 era,when AMD did some questionable thngs because they were the top dog,and they defended them too. People need to understand why Intel and Nvidia has gotten away with questionable things,because people allowed them to,and AMD is no different. They act nice because they were behind,but once they are the top dog,they will do the same. Just because they are “nicer” does not give them the right to be without criticism,whilst people then criticise Intel and Nvidia.
It's not something that affects me as I chose an X570 motherboard to go with my 3950X when I was buying them, but for those it does affect, it paints a poor picture of AMD acting a little like Intel.
Especially as there is scepticism about the BIOS excuse, as well as AMD's previous assertions to OEMs indicating otherwise until this announcement. Hopefully AMD will make a U-turn on this decision and provide ways to run Zen 3 on at least B450 and X470 after all, despite the suggestion of Hardware Unboxed's source indicating otherwise.
yup. How to lose friends and alienate people 2020 starring AMD…
https://twitter.com/GamersNexus/status/1259168401748099072Gamersnexus
Regarding B550 outrage, I sent a large email to AMD in September 2019 warning about how its marketing plays would eventually turn the community against it as it moved out of underdog status. Here are two excerpts. We gave AMD the courtesy of private notice, but no one listened.
I just don't get all this damn wingeing about this. AMD said support to 2020 and thay have done that. Most were estatic about Zen coming out and giving Intel the kick up the arse they deserved for complacency , continually ripping peeps off with their smug pricing and very dubious business practises.If you are going to build a system do your research and build to your requirements and budget. For completely new architecture AMD did a bloody good job but time don't stand still and if you want them to continue striving for even better products this has to happen. We were given a good long run with chipset compatability so be thankful for it. Intel won't sit on their butts for long so don't expect AMD to so and lose the initiative they have made.
mers
I just don't get all this damn wingeing about this. AMD said support to 2020 and thay have done that. Most were estatic about Zen coming out and giving Intel the kick up the arse they deserved for complacency , continually ripping peeps off with their smug pricing and very dubious business practises.If you are going to build a system do your research and build to your requirements and budget. For completely new architecture AMD did a bloody good job but time don't stand still and if you want them to continue striving for even better products this has to happen. We were given a good long run with chipset compatability so be thankful for it. Intel won't sit on their butts for long so don't expect AMD to so and lose the initiative they have made.
People keep whinging at Intel all the time for doing stuff,and then when AMD does the same crap,that is fine.
Yes,people did their research. Firstly AMD made the following charts:
Then when Zen2 launched,they didn't release a mainstream B550. They on purpose kept B450 as the mainstream chipset for 12 months,ie,no B450 until nearly July.
Their own marketing on Twitter and Reddit frequently posts to clarify misunderstandings. Yet,for so long they said zero to anyone.
Then they told system integrators that B450 would work with microcode updates.
Until AMD made their press release,they were in the dark,as they believed what AMD told them.
There was nothing stopping AMD releasing a Zen3 compatible B450 release in time for the Zen2 launch,ie,call it B450X or B550A to avoid confusion.
Also the whole BIOS chip size is on AMD. They design the reference specifications so should have specified larger BIOS chips - apparently its like a $1 or $2 difference.
People shouldn't be thankful for being screwed around with,especially when so many people went into discussions about CPUs,mocking Intel for it's own socket strategy. Now AMD does a similar move then they don't get a free pass!
This is getting weirder and weirder by the second:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBRNck_-wA&feature=emb_titlehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBRNck_-wA&feature=emb_titleUpdates: AMD has refrained from commenting and therefore addressing any of our questions at this point, but we have had some interesting conversations with a few of their partners. Again to be perfectly clear on this point, board partners cannot support Ryzen 4000 series processors on 400-series motherboards without AMD’s help, it’s simply not possible. So don’t expect an AIB to crack the code and open up support, again without AMD’s support it’s not going to happen. It does seem as though this was a recent decision by AMD and their partners found out the same time we did, so that’s truly bizarre, but then given the last few product releases from AMD it’s getting harder and harder to be suprised by this stuff.
I’ve also had industry contacts confirm that the AMD BIOS excuse is rubbish and that simple workarounds are possible, just like the one I discussed. In one example there would be a single large BIOS file that you download, then upon flashing you select the CPU series you want to support and it flashes the appropriate code. So at this point it’s now up to the rest of the community to pressure AMD into changing this decision and to open up support for 400-series boards. You guys had better believe that if you give them an inch, they’ll take a mile and we’ll be back to where we were just a few years ago.
thanks Cat, a really good video! Those statements on the msi website are worth taking screen shots of for anyone with a 400 series board. It gives you some legal recourse re false advertising at the very least
ik9000
thanks Cat, a really good video! Those statements on the msi website are worth taking screen shots of for anyone with a 400 series board. It gives you some legal recourse re false advertising at the very least
If you read the quoted comment,it appears system integrators and motherboard OEMs didn't see the statement from AMD coming either! So,AMD is now going to cause some tension with companies over what happened. Also MSI has BIOS flashback,so the AMD excuse makes less sense,as you only need a BIOS with Zen3 compatibility as you don't need a CPU in the motherboard!
I'm appreciating Cats tenacity on this.
Chances are someone at AMD responsible for microcode has been told to trim their costs. They look at the huge number of combinations of testing between CPU's and chipsets/motherboards and conclude that they can reduce the testing a substantial amount by dropping B450 support for Zen 3. Also dropping Zen 1 Support from the x570 and B550 really helps there. What they probably didn't do is properly check with other departments such as marketing whether their plan was compatible with what marketing have been doing. Now there's probably chaos inside AMD whilst the marketing dept are trying to avoid too much backlash. There are probably quite a few people monitoring reactions and feeding back to various directors. They probably have a weekly update meeting to judge whether a reversal is needed or they can just sit this one out.
Ultimately I hope that the backlash is enough that they are forced into a reversal. It will affect similar future decisions if they know these decisions are a PR (and potentially sales) nightmare.
However I wasn't planning on getting a new CPU/MB/RAM just yet so I don't really care. At the earliest I'd imagine I wait for 6 months after B550 for the various hardware and software bugs to be ironed out.
x570 was never an option for me as it's overpriced and too hot.
I STILL don't really need to replace my 3570K as I don't see enough slowdowns (beyond booting up) that are CPU related. I don't care about the difference between 75 FPS and 150 FPS when my monitors can only do 60.
badass
I don't care about the difference between 75 FPS and 150 FPS when my monitors can only do 60.
For gaming, a high refresh rate Freesync/G-Sync monitor will change your life (not even joking).
Tabbykatze
I'm appreciating Cats tenacity on this.
AMD made the whole platform upgradeability point,as a side swipe at Intel who do the opposite. However,if they intend to do the same as Intel,they should expect to get the same criticism as Intel. Even Gamersnexus said,they play on the underdog status,but if they intend to do the same tactics it will rebound on them.
The last few sentences are the most relevant IMHO. That was part of an e-mail they sent them last year.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
AMD made the whole platform upgradeability point,as a side swipe at Intel who do the opposite. However,if they intend to do the same as Intel,they should expect to get the same criticism as Intel. Even Gamersnexus said,they play on the underdog status,but if they intend to do the same tactics it will rebound on them.
The last few sentences are the most relevant IMHO. That was part of an e-mail they sent them last year.
I would normally defend AMDs actions stoically (and reasonably where possible) but this is straight up just stupid of them, it really is.
Tabbykatze
I would normally defend AMDs actions stoically (and reasonably where possible) but this is straight up just stupid of them, it really is.
I usually defend them against unfair criticisms,but badass might have a point. With Covid19,I wonder if they thought it's a good idea to cut some costs here and there? ;)
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I usually defend them against unfair criticisms,but badass might have a point. With Covid19,I wonder if they thought it's a good idea to cut some costs here and there? ;)
It might be that it takes too long to get updates out, a time cost more than a financial one. But AMD support their graphics cards for a decent length of time, and GPUs have a far worse test matrix than a hand full of processors where cores and cache are disabled to create variants.
Nah, cost cutting doesn't feel right to me. I think it's just some manager being a pointy haired idiot, maybe because they have risen to a tier where *they* don't understand what;s going on around them :D
I feel a T-shirt coming on.
“Free the B450 4000”
Why can't we have optional support? 400 series MB's with Zen2 CPU runs firmware update which removes Ryzen 1000 and 2000 series support while adding support for the 4000 series (keeping 3000 series support). It would be upto the OEM's to check, label and help the users. Some 400 series MB's have 16M BIOS so they could easily take newer firmware with support for the 4000 series. Maybe these older MB's won't support the top performing CPU's or limit power saving lower voltages or another non-essential feature but these could support a large number of users. Another 12 months and we would be complaining these old MB's don't support the 5000 series but supporting 2 or 3 series at a time should be enough. Can I please replace the Ryzen 2700 in my Qnap TS-1677XU NAS with a 3000 or 4000 model (65w TDP)?
tygrus
It would be upto the OEM's to check, label and help the users.
Well yes, I think the 3000 series release seemed to go fairly well without much friction, certainly I don't remember hearing much drama. Possibly because all the friction happened with the 2000 series release.
AMD ended up sending construction core A6 chips out on loan probably at great expense because 2000 series chips wouldn't work on 300 series motherboards until you update. The kicker here: the support for those construction core A6 chips has now been removed from some motherboards, so now AMD would have to send out rather more valuable Athlon chips.
It seems a shame that the market seems to have gotten the hang of these transitions, and now AMD has changed the rules which I suspect will cause *more* confusion.
DanceswithUnix
I think it's just some manager being a pointy haired idiot, maybe because they have risen to a tier where *they* don't understand what;s going on around them :D
Absolutely no doubt about that. In any large company it's completely impossible to stop the incompetent from infiltrating most tiers of management.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JluNkjdpxFo&feature=emb_titlehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JluNkjdpxFo&feature=emb_titleSome quotes from Gamersnexus:
“AMD gotten what it deserved and it's fans got a bit of wake-up call”.
“AMD has a history of obtuse marketing which plays to the cheap seats”.
“AMD is now a big boy company and it's fans need to realise it's one”.
“AMD knew lack of compatability would cause issues”.“AMD wanted to announce the 500 chipset news around Zen3 support and the lack of 450 and 470 Zen3 support before the Zen3 CPU launch because AMD wanted to pre-empt that launch and AMD did not want all of this to overshadow a new CPU launch and wanted to give a chance for people to sit and simmer or sit and stew depending on the news”.“After talking to people familar with the matter, AMD didn't expect the backlash to be this bad”.“AMD should have spent all this time building up it's own products instead of making a self righteous post about how Intel is repugnant for not supporting its CPUs past a single socket”.
Not sure AMD will want to send him any review parts after that! :p
It also shows AMD definitely knew for a longtime that B450 would not work,they knew not making B450/X470 incompatible would cause a problem,and didn't give a damn about what people thought,so decided to keep quiet until it suited them,ie, to not affect the Zen3 launch.
So,in the end no better than Intel really.
Edit!!
https://www.techspot.com/news/85180-amd-axes-zen-3-support-400-series-motherboards.html
That's really quite saddening and i would have liked to have thought Lisa would not have signed off on such a stupid notion
CAT-THE-FIFTH
You read that right,less than 1 USD difference in price based on single unit purchases.
Which is enough to make it worthwhile using the cheaper one, especially since it's one component of many in a motherboard. If it was 5c different then I'd question the worth, but nearly a whole dollar is a lot - 66% more! Try arguing to someone keeping costs down that you should spend 66% more.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
You read that right,less than 1 USD difference in price based on single unit purchases.
As someone who has spent a lot of time in manufacturing…
The pricing of BIOS chips is muddy as hell, but “It adds a Dollar” is about the one thing you can say for sure is tripe.
The factory adds 40% margin for placing it on a board and testing, distribution adds 40% for moving it through their warehouses, the retailer adds 40% when you buy it off them. Component price is at a minimum doubled by the time it gets to the consumer.
Realistically you are talking a £2 price increase to use the bigger BIOS, which on a £70 B450 motherboard is a pretty significant percentage. OFC like the MAX boards if the value is spelled out then the price increase could boost sales rather than tank them. For years Gigabyte sold boards with a socketed BIOS as a protection against bricking it with a bad BIOS flash, which always struck me as a bizarre value proposition when it added not just another component (the socket) but a manual operation of a human having to insert the chip into the socket and yet they must have been making money on that as they kept making them, replacing it with a “Dual BIOS” where they got customers to pay for a BIOS chip twice the size they could ever use.
On a related note given the source of this, I gather there is a Eurovision inspired AI song writing competition happening where one of the entries trained its lyrics generator from Reddit and sings “Kill the government, kill the system.” :D
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/05/when-ai-takes-on-eurovision-can-a-computer-write-a-hit-song/
kalniel
Which is enough to make it worthwhile using the cheaper one, especially since it's one component of many in a motherboard. If it was 5c different then I'd question the worth, but nearly a whole dollar is a lot - 66% more! Try arguing to someone keeping costs down that you should spend 66% more.
DanceswithUnix
As someone who has spent a lot of time in manufacturing…
The pricing of BIOS chips is muddy as hell, but “It adds a Dollar” is about the one thing you can say for sure is tripe.
The factory adds 40% margin for placing it on a board and testing, distribution adds 40% for moving it through their warehouses, the retailer adds 40% when you buy it off them. Component price is at a minimum doubled by the time it gets to the consumer.
Realistically you are talking a £2 price increase to use the bigger BIOS, which on a £70 B450 motherboard is a pretty significant percentage. OFC like the MAX boards if the value is spelled out then the price increase could boost sales rather than tank them. For years Gigabyte sold boards with a socketed BIOS as a protection against bricking it with a bad BIOS flash, which always struck me as a bizarre value proposition when it added not just another component (the socket) but a manual operation of a human having to insert the chip into the socket and yet they must have been making money on that as they kept making them, replacing it with a “Dual BIOS” where they got customers to pay for a BIOS chip twice the size they could ever use.
On a related note given the source of this, I gather there is a Eurovision inspired AI song writing competition happening where one of the entries trained its lyrics generator from Reddit and sings “Kill the government, kill the system.” :D
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/05/when-ai-takes-on-eurovision-can-a-computer-write-a-hit-song/
The prices quoted,where if you or me were to order it from a parts distributor(think Farnell) as a home purchaser with taxes added,as a single part. It's not bulk pricing,which often is significantly lower.
From my experience of people involved in these kinds of things,the end user prices are significantly higher,as the resellers add a healthy margin to them,compared to buying direct from the factory. The factories have even lower pricing for larger companies. Then you forget the end user pricing in the US and UK involves all the travel costs and duties on top of multiple middle men involved by the time it gets here. Now compare that to Taiwan or China,where these chips are made in the same country and shipped locally,paid for in local currency,to where the motherboards are made. Even if it is between China and Taiwan and vice versa,it's hardly a distance or cost involved. This is why electronics manufacturing is clustered around there.
So it's going to be far less than one dollar difference for certain,if it costs one dollar more over in the US or UK,and again probably paid for in local currencies.
I have even seen this when I travelled abroad,certain items here,sold at huge markups here for basically the same thing in a fancy package,and some branding. This is why people are shocked when they can getting something imported from China for so cheap relative to here - remember,even with all those costs,the seller in China is making a margin,the middle men selling it to him is making a margin,the factory assembling the item is making a margin,the middlemen selling the components to the factory are making a margin,and the company making the individual parts are making a margin. Then you realise some of these chips,must cost a few cents to make.
It also does not stop them using dual BIOSes or even socket BIOSes if they have tons of 16MB BIOS chips lying about,especially as AMD is promoting long socket compatibility,and Intel isn't. AMD should know how to manage it's own products as it made the promises. If AMD can't DON'T make the promises.
Also these are not OEM motherboards but for the DIY market - all that RGB bling and fancy decals on the motherboard probably cost more to implement. Think of all the additional traces on the motherboards to implement RGB lighting,the added controllers,etc. Those probably cost more than a dollar to implement. My B450I Strix has a ton of LEDs,which probably cost more than the 32MB BIOS chip. Motherboards even adjusted for inflation,etc are starting to go up more and more in terms of the ones with decent build quality,good VRM cooling,etc compare to back in the past.
Also lots of AM3+ motherboards I checked in the past,especially the Asus EVO range were using 32MB BIOS chips a decade ago. Those chips cost more back then.
Also,as you said,if it adds even £2 more for a motherboard do you honestly think someone will suddenly not buy a motherboard which costs £75 at retail instead of £70,especially since DIY buyers have put up with higher and higher GPU prices?? We have motherboards which cost £500 now - even £200 X570 motherboards have 16MB BIOS chips.
I think this more AMD not really sitting down and talking to their OEMs. Look at X570 needing fans?? AMD probably mandated that as a reference specification,instead of decent heatsinks,ie,a bigger chunk of aluminium. Modern chipset heatsinks are puny useless things,compared to what you had even a few years ago.
If despite this,they knew this was a problem,they would have known it's a problem back in 2018 with Zen+ being launched,they would have known in 2019 with Zen2,so they should have changed their marketing material from then onwards.
Instead they doubled down with the good guy stuff,and made a blog post in 2019 IIRC,calling out Intel as being evil for forcing people to change their motherboards!
Edit!!
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-3000-destiny-2-beta-chipset-driver,40041.htmlAMD in July 2019
“The alternative to this BIOS ‘problem,’ which we find truly repugnant, is simply breaking socket compatibility with every new generation of CPU. Nobody can keep their old motherboard and upgrade, anymore. Nobody would ever have to worry about a BIOS update again… but they would also never get to keep their investment ever again. To us, that is not the right thing to do. It seems hostile and abusive to arbitrarily prevent users from keeping the same motherboard, which may cost a few hundred dollars, just to make the upgrade process a little ‘neater’ on paper. So we do what we can to support in-socket upgrades as we have with Socket AM4.”
Within a year just change tact,and they blame everyone else apart from themselves. They need to stop this good guy marketing if they intend to act more like the others. Always the OEMs problems,Intel's fault,Nvidia's fault,the end-users fault,but they sometimes need to actually take blame for their own muck ups too.
Typical AMD - how many times have they pulled this stunt of mucking around with sockets/chipsets after using vague PR. I should have expected they would get back to their old habits,but didn't realise it was going to happen so quickly.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
The prices quoted,where if you or me were to order it from a parts distributor(think Farnell) as a home purchaser with taxes added,as a single part. It's not bulk pricing,which often is significantly lower.
You didn't state that the 1.5USD was bulk purchase, you implied it was single unit.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
less than 1 USD difference in price based on single unit purchases.
A 66% increase is a 66% increase whether you're comparing single unit to single unit or bulk to bulk.
kalniel
You didn't state that the 1.5USD was bulk purchase, you implied it was single unit.
A 66% increase is a 66% increase whether you're comparing single unit to single unit or bulk to bulk.
No I said its a single unit price in the US,and from my experience of people involved with importing Chinese items,that $1 price is massively overinflated as it's based on pricing here. Also from my own experience off seeing stuff sold abroad,plenty of stuff here is massively overinflated in price,because they can,especially some of those electronics parts as they are niche. The big suppliers in the UK/US can set whatever pricing they want. Probably much higher than what people think when you look at bulk pricing from factories. Talk to people who have some experience of having to deal with some of the Chinese supply chains,and the interactions they have with companies here.
That's is why that Reddit post made an emphasis on single item pricing in dollars. I wonder what the local factory to factory pricing is in Shenzhen in Yuan? I would say significantly lower.
It also does not change the fact AMD advertised socket upgradeability. BIOS sizes would be a predictable problem from day 1.
They had two launches since Zen,and if there was problems with getting larger BIOS chips installed in 2018(Zen+) and 2019(Zen2) as many motherboards have 16MB BIOSes(even X570),then either they are too lax with their internal specifications or just winging it really. Then just after the Zen2 launch called out Intel as evil for not keeping socket upgradeability.
So if poor AMD,can't get it's OEMs to use bigger BIOS chips,then they perhaps should change their marketing instead of doubling down and mocking Intel,for the last 12 months.
They decided to continue with their vague marketing even to system integrators,like Schenker who were told B450 would work until their announcement. How can you tell a system integrator it works,and then they are perplexed by AMD making its annoucement last week? Senior marketing people are on forums such as Reddit,and did nothing to dispel any wrong notions,and they have debunked mere rumours in the past.
So at this point,this is entirely their fault. Either make stuff work,or change your marketing. As Gamersnexus said,they only pulled FORWARD the annoucement to make less bad PR for the Zen3 launch. Sounds like this was known about for a while.
Edit!!
This is another problem,with so many X570 motherboards having a 16MB BIOS chips,what if AMD launches a B650 or X670 with Zen3?? There is no guarantee that even if they say Zen3 is compatible it won't be in a severely gimped way.
cat, what chip is in the MSi x570 ace?
ik9000
cat, what chip is in the MSi x570 ace?
This is the list for future reference:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/c1dnu3/x570x470x370b450b350a320_am4socket_motherboards/It's not a be all and end all list,and I cannot guarentee 100% accuracy,but it's the only resource we have.
Edit!
Apparently 32MB BIOS chips,but the MSI X570 Tomahawk is their cheaper X570 champion according to reviews.
Just confirm it with PCB pictures too. Also I wouldn't spend so much on an X570 motherboard,now as we might be seeing an X670 when Zen4 launches.
is that the right link? it's not a list when I open it
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I made a mistake - look at my edit.
Edit!!
KitGuru confirm it as 256mb:
https://www.kitguru.net/components/motherboard/luke-hill/msi-meg-x570-ace-motherboard-review/all/1/
thanks Cat - I've fished out this
link to the boards from x570 launch-time. It list bios chips. Most seems to be 128Mb or 256Mb. (ie 16MB or 32MB) For once MSI, by using 32MB chips, have done better than Gigabyte where all their high-end, even the £700+ Aorus Extreme, only has a 16MB chip
all the B450 and x470 listed have at least 16MB chips, with the exception of Biostar boards which might do, but are listed as blank/unknown. If x570 really needs 32MB to be supported going fowards then why the heck do all of Gigabyte's premium Aorus boards only have 16MB chips?
edit I see we're both now linking to the same spreadsheet. Let's hope the Aorus boards have 32MB chips. I'd be fuming if I'd bought one and it meant I couldn't use Ryzen 3 chips on x570!
ik9000
thanks Cat - I've fished out this link to the boards from x570 launch-time. It list bios chips. Most seems to be 128Mb or 256Mb. (ie 16MB or 32MB) For once MSI, by using 32MB chips, have done better than Gigabyte where all their high-end, even the £700+ Aorus Extreme, only has a 16MB chip
all the B450 and x470 listed have at least 16MB chips, with the exception of Biostar boards which might do, but are listed as blank/unknown. If x570 really needs 32MB to be supported going fowards then why the heck do all of its premium boards only have 16MB chips?
edit I see we're both now linking to the same spreadsheet. Let's hope the Aorus boards have 32MB chips. I'd be fuming if I'd bought one and it meant I couldn't use Ryzen 3 chips on x570!
My B450 has a 32MB BIOS! ;)
Oh,well looks like we need to trust AMD that X570 motherboards with 16MB BIOSes will work perfectly fine.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Oh,well looks like we need to trust AMD that X570 motherboards with 16MB BIOSes will work perfectly fine.
But I thought this fuss was all because they're saying 16MB wouldn't be enough?
I wonder if the real reason is 300 and 400 series boards had win7 support. By not releasing bios aegesa for those boards it stops people updating the bios, sticking in a lovely new chip and installing win7, or dropping the chip into a working win7 image. It's the only sensible reason I can find for why the line in the sand now. One wonders whether this isn't another entity putting pressure on AMD… I mean they went hard to make sure there were no win7 drivers released for x570 despite it being perfectly compatible and win7 still being in security support, and IIRC AMD saying early doors that it would run win7.
ik9000
But I thought this fuss was all because they're saying 16MB wouldn't be enough?
I wonder if the real reason is 300 and 400 series boards had win7 support. By not releasing bios aegesa for those boards it stops people updating the bios, sticking in a lovely new chip and installing win7, or dropping the chip into a working win7 image. It's the only sensible reason I can find for why the line in the sand now. One wonders whether this isn't another entity putting pressure on AMD… I mean they went hard to make sure there were no win7 drivers released for x570 despite it being perfectly compatible and win7 still being in security support, and IIRC AMD saying early doors that it would run win7.
I have given up now with making any sense of what AMD is doing,it's one PR disaster after another. They basically want to make more money,and not beyond being vague about stuff - I don't trust a word which comes out of their mouth. Just take it at face value and assume its no different than Intel. If they do decide to be “charitable” take it as an exception not the common thing.
You know what is worse about all this?? AMD could have annouced this last year,and saved themselves a lot of negative PR. Instead they decided to drop this news,when 100s of millions of people are at home,during the worst global lockdown and recession in a 100 years. Millions of people at home on their PCs,amongst them many Geeks,who realise the B450 motherboards they have are somewhat worthless now,and they will be forced to spend more money if they upgrade. How many threads next year when Zen2 owners not following things will ask why does not Zen3 work??
Secondhand prices of the better Zen2 CPUs will probably stay high if Zen3 is locked out.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Secondhand prices of the better Zen2 CPUs will probably stay high if Zen3 is locked out.
possibly! Silver lining for me if that's the case provided Ryzen 3 and 4 do work on x570, though part of me had hoped to pick up a cheap 3950x down the line. I imagine, given economy, I won't be able to go 4950x for a quite a while yet though so just how quickly that 2nd-hand trickle-down happens is anyone's guess. When i looked at B450 it just seemed a bit hamstrung and yesterday's tech specs. I'd kind of assumed it was EOL and gave up waiting for B550 so went X570 for a bit more longevity in it as things go pcie4 + beyond. A lot of people compromised on the lower spec to avoid the chipset fan though, and with the noises being made about at least one more compatible generation of CPU I can understand why they are not happy.
ik9000
possibly! Silver lining for me if that's the case provided Ryzen 3 and 4 do work on x570. I imagine, given economy I won't be able to go 4900x for a while yet though so just how quickly that trickle-down happens is anyone's guess. When i looked at B450 it just seemed hamstrung and yesterday's tech specs. I'd kind of assumed it was EOL and gave up waiting for B550 so went X570 for a bit more longevity in it as things go pcie4 + beyond. A lot of people compromised on the lower spec to avoid the chipset fan though, and with the noises being made about at least one more compatible generation of CPU I can understand why they are not happy.
Well for 12 months of Zen2,and £180+ X570 motherboards made them not very palatable,and the fans were not ideal. I luckily switched over a bit earlier,as I use a mini-ITX system,and even the B450 ones can be upto £150. The X570 ones,are well over £220 still,so I would probably have made the same decision,due to cost and myself having experienced small chipset fans in mini-ITX systems being a PITA with dust buildup and wearing out quicker. Due to mini-ITX systems running hotter the fans will run more often and get more clogged up with dust.
It appears having a 6+1 phase VRM and a 32MB BIOS is not enough for the mighty Zen3,and PCI-E 4.0,but the following OEM POS,is perfect:
In some ways I am happy I upgraded 9 months before,and got that extra usage on Zen+ as I would have been caught out. Still I wonder if I should wait for a good deal on a Zen2 CPU,and avoid getting caught into the prices staying high for used examples. Then I can skip Zen3,part of Zen4 and hope to see what Intel also brings to the table too. Because I expect AMD will do more of this crap,if Intel is behind from next year.
Be calm Cat be calm. Happy thoughts. Smiley happy fluffy kittens :)
ik9000
Be calm Cat be calm. Happy thoughts. Smiley happy fluffy kittens :)
Talking to my mates on AM4….their input on this was….AMD you are fail,fail,fail,or wait what is the point of keeping the same socket,if you need a new chipset to make the cpus work,then or I will wait for DDR5 to become mainstream.None of these people would actually post on a forum,but know enough to build a PC,and do some research on what to buy when they need new parts. But none would actually keep upto date after this has happened,unless someone like me tells them - maybe I should have kept quiet,ignorance is bliss and all of that.
I think next time,I am just going to get the cheapest totally not crap motherboard I can get away with - it worked fine for me for Ivy Bridge,which I was on it for nearly 7 years. I don't overclock,and use lower TDP CPUs,so overclocking is pointless for me. So all this AMD segmentation,is also the thing which finally got me annoyed with Intel,ie,stopping Xeon E3 CPUs working in consumer socket motherboards(sub £200 Core i7s). If not I probably would have got a Skylake Xeon E3 too,but decided I would keep my money. I nearly went onto socket 754 myself and saw what AMD did to that socket,so decided my XP2800 would last fine,and skipped the Athlon 64,and went straight to socket 775,and the Core2.
Anyway got some Grim Dawn to play! :)
PS:
Also ran out of ice cream too.
Some more noise from the German system integrator,which AMD told through official channels,that the B450 would work. The same integrator,which only found out from the AMD press release,it wouldn't work!
AMD announced this week that the B450 chipset will no longer be officially compatible with yet unannounced Ryzen 4000 desktop CPUs (“ZEN 3” architecture), although we were told from official contacts that B450 would still be on the list. Unfortunately, we were not able to find out the exact technical background of this other than maybe some limitation in the flash memory chip capacity of B450 boards. Experience from past AMD launches shows that sometimes compatibility (possibly limited) can be provided with some creative methods. We will probably only know more details as soon as ZEN 3 appears on the market. The rumors when this will happen range from October to sometime in early 2021. We don't have any samples yet.
In view of AMD's new official compatibility matrix, we have to announce at this point in time that we cannot guarantee a subsequent upgrade of the Ryzen 4000-series CPU in the AM4 socket of your XMG APEX 15.
On the other hand - if we get some special support from AMD and our ODM - it might be technically possible? We will see - it's currently more than uncertain. // Tom
Reached out, got technical background info. Basically, we will have to rely on special support from our ODM and the stars will have to align for us. Good thing is: we don't have to support any old legacy CPUs nor any APUs in this model. No APU because the iGPU pins are not even connected on our fatherboard. So ROM size itself won't be insurmountable. If we push our ODM hard enough and if there aren't any bugs from reverse engineering, who knows. No guarantees yet. This could go either way at this point and I don't feel confident about pushing our ODM for commitment while we have neither CPU samples nor ZEN 3 AGESA from AMD. Everybody will just have to wait and see now. // Tom
Also,from that earliest possible Zen3 launch date is October this year but it could also be early next year.
Edit!!
This is one of the products affected that they sell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFTMBTDGTx8&feature=youtu.behttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFTMBTDGTx8&feature=youtu.beIt's a laptop with upto a Ryzen 9 3950X.
Second Edit!!
The Zen2 refresh,aka,as Matisse 2 rumoured to only work on B550 according to Moores Law is Dead. Hopefully that means we might get some deals on the older Zen2 models.
Sumanji
For gaming, a high refresh rate Freesync/G-Sync monitor will change your life (not even joking).
No, no it won't. Not at all.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Secondhand prices of the better Zen2 CPUs will probably stay high if Zen3 is locked out.
Maybe not. New prices of 2000 series parts dropped when Zen 2 came out, so you may well be able to pick up a bargain new Zen2 without touching the second hand market. That's ignoring the market from X570 upgrades (don't know how large a market that is, but if you can afford an X570 you are probably more likely to upgrade than the likes of me on a X470/B450 board).
DanceswithUnix
Maybe not. New prices of 2000 series parts dropped when Zen 2 came out, so you may well be able to pick up a bargain new Zen2 without touching the second hand market. That's ignoring the market from X570 upgrades (don't know how large a market that is, but if you can afford an X570 you are probably more likely to upgrade than the likes of me on a X470/B450 board).
I think it could,as people expected further upgrades and it will be something which plays out in a few years when people start to find they need a better CPU.Remember Zen2 will be the upgrade path for Zen and Zen+ owners too,and the higher end Zen2 models will be the upgrade path for those with a lower end Zen2 model. Also unlike in the past AMD really made the upgradeability of AM4 a major selling point - literally everyone I know who built an AM4 system,seemed to know this. It's hard not to miss it as every review,guide and forum kept repeating it “unlike Intel”.
Regarding upgrades from my own experience,it's those with higher end motherboards who upgrade less often,as they tend to be wealthier and buy a better CPU.
Someone on a lower budget,will tend to chose an upgrade if its viable over buying new everything else.The problem,is it is also likely we might see Zen2 refresh and Renoir possibly locked out too.
So it leads to a scenario,where the best CPUs on the platform are those Zen2 CPUs,especially higher end ones,and if you have been on Intel before,the same scenario happened.The higher end models,kept their values for years.
Even my old IB Xeon E3 1230 V2 was worth a surprising amount when I sold it. Same as mate's Core i7s when they sold them,they held a surprising amount of their value.
It's what I have seen over the last decade with Intel. I even saw that with the Phenom II X6 CPUs which seemed to hold their value well for a while too. Because again,those CPUs cover AM2+ and AM3 and AM3+ too. AM3+ came out before Bulldozer,and definitely even when Piledriver was out the secondhand values were not as bad as you would think they were. That surprised me as Piledriver was better for gaming.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
That surprised me as Piledriver was better for gaming.
It was, and for a couple of PCs in our house still is, but Bulldozer was slated enough that AMD gave up.
Still, with all those B450 owners unable to buy Zen3, that will push down the demand and hence price for Zen3. So if Zen 3 is any good, then Zen 2 can't remain expensive as people will just buy a B550 and a Zen 3.
I'm personally finding this annoying already. The wife has started complaining that a VM on our home server (currently on an FM2+ board) is running slow so we need an upgrade. So that's the next project here at the Dance's household: I need a Linux friendly uATX board to go in my old Antec Fusion case (because that case looks nice where it is).
I have a 2200G once again spare, but don't fancy getting a B450 to put it in now. A 2200G won't go into a B550 board according to AMD's Chart of Socket Doom, so would involve a new CPU purchase.
I could get an X570 board, but given my uATX case that gives me a choice AFAICS of just one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASRock-X570M-Pro4-DDR4-Motherboard/dp/B07TD8ZT5T/So that's £100 over the price of a B450 board for X570, or I have to try and find a media PC box that can take an ATX board which probably means an expensive Silverstone case.
So what could be £70 for a motherboard and £70 for some ram to do the upgrade is starting to look a bit expensive. B450 may still be my best route, but given the timing I think I'll wait for B550 to come out before I jump. Even if the B550 goes into a different machine, then at least *that* one becomes upgradable in the future and I can swap out a B450 to go into the server and slap in the 2200G on that for now.
So £140 for a solution with limited upgrade path, £240 for the same performance now but with an X570, I'm not even pricing up with a new case.
…. or I could give up and go read a book. Maybe I'll do that :D
(the Intel LAN on that X570 board looks nice for home server use mind)
DanceswithUnix
Maybe not. New prices of 2000 series parts dropped when Zen 2 came out, so you may well be able to pick up a bargain new Zen2 without touching the second hand market. That's ignoring the market from X570 upgrades (don't know how large a market that is, but if you can afford an X570 you are probably more likely to upgrade than the likes of me on a X470/B450 board).
I bought my pc on the back of several years of saving for it. I can only afford one big build every 10 years, and even then with GPU prices that is still an ongoing save project!
edit I bought X570 not because I'm happy paying that much, but I'd rather pay £100 more and have current/more future-proof tech than get the B450 board that just felt like it was yesterday's spec. It's precisely because I can't afford another upgrade of any magnitude that I went X570. Believe me I would have welcomed a B550 option last year!
DanceswithUnix
It was, and for a couple of PCs in our house still is, but Bulldozer was slated enough that AMD gave up.
Still, with all those B450 owners unable to buy Zen3, that will push down the demand and hence price for Zen3. So if Zen 3 is any good, then Zen 2 can't remain expensive as people will just buy a B550 and a Zen 3.
We will see,but I am uncertain if people will bother with a B550,if they just bought a Zen2,ie,they would probably wait longer than that. Also just look at some of the secondhand Core i7 quad core prices,despite the newer Intel CPUs being better,the secondhand market is still fine. Hopefully it won't happen,as I don't mind a cheap secondhand Zen2! :)
DanceswithUnix
I'm personally finding this annoying already. The wife has started complaining that a VM on our home server (currently on an FM2+ board) is running slow so we need an upgrade. So that's the next project here at the Dance's household: I need a Linux friendly uATX board to go in my old Antec Fusion case (because that case looks nice where it is).
I have a 2200G once again spare, but don't fancy getting a B450 to put it in now. A 2200G won't go into a B550 board according to AMD's Chart of Socket Doom, so would involve a new CPU purchase.
I could get an X570 board, but given my uATX case that gives me a choice AFAICS of just one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASRock-X570M-Pro4-DDR4-Motherboard/dp/B07TD8ZT5T/
So that's £100 over the price of a B450 board for X570, or I have to try and find a media PC box that can take an ATX board which probably means an expensive Silverstone case.
So what could be £70 for a motherboard and £70 for some ram to do the upgrade is starting to look a bit expensive. B450 may still be my best route, but given the timing I think I'll wait for B550 to come out before I jump. Even if the B550 goes into a different machine, then at least *that* one becomes upgradable in the future and I can swap out a B450 to go into the server and slap in the 2200G on that for now.
So £140 for a solution with limited upgrade path, £240 for the same performance now but with an X570, I'm not even pricing up with a new case.
…. or I could give up and go read a book. Maybe I'll do that :D
(the Intel LAN on that X570 board looks nice for home server use mind)
It's already affected a mate. Their original PC was an Athlon II X3 with a 970 motherboard which was upgraded to an FX6350. Now it's gone kaput. Problem is that for their budget the X570 motherboards are way OTT,as it would mean no SSD,worse PSU,case,etc. B550 is a month away and we don't know if stock is good for the motherboards,so it's too long for them to be without a PC. So now they have to get a B450,and the prices have all gone upand I told them,its EOL. They will be the person who will definitely slot in a better CPU sometime in the near future. But it's either get a B450,or get an Intel system. £100 to £120 more on a suitable X570 isn't worth it - even if they could extend the budget,they might as well get a Ryzen 7 3700X and a B450.
ik9000
I bought my pc on the back of several years of saving for it. I can only afford one big build every 10 years, and even then with GPU prices that is still an ongoing save project!
edit I bought X570 not because I'm happy paying that much, but I'd rather pay £100 more and have current/more future-proof tech than get the B450 board that just felt like it was yesterday's spec. It's precisely because I can't afford another upgrade of any magnitude that I went X570. Believe me I would have welcomed a B550 option last year!
What will new platform bring… pci4…that will mature after 2022, what else…ax wifi possible.. ddr5 maybe?
I bought 2200g for around 90, I'm starting to see 2600 hitting <£120. 2700 has hit 160. My mobo is showing 3000 series compatible as well. So I can go 2600 + gtx 1660 for 350.00. That's good enough for me.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It's already affected a mate. Their original PC was an Athlon II X3 with a 970 motherboard which was upgraded to an FX6350. Now it's gone kaput. Problem is that for their budget the X570 motherboards are way OTT,as it would mean no SSD,worse PSU,case,etc. B550 is a month away and we don't know if stock is good for the motherboards,so it's too long for them to be without a PC. So now they have to get a B450,and the prices have all gone upand I told them,its EOL. They will be the person who will definitely slot in a better CPU sometime in the near future. But it's either get a B450,or get an Intel system. £100 to £120 more on a suitable X570 isn't worth it - even if they could extend the budget,they might as well get a Ryzen 7 3700X and a B450.
With it looking like Zen3 is to be the last AM4 CPU architecture*, realistically what additional performance will be on the table for them over Zen2? 20% probably. Mabe less.
I don't know about everyone else but I refuse to upgrade my system unless it's replacement is around twice as powerful at least otherwise it's just throwing away money for slightly taller bar charts.
All they are missing out on is that last 20%. They can still get a quad core last gen now and upgrade to a 12 core current gen later (16 cores? total waste of money with 2 memory channels!)
*Zen4 likely planned for late 2022 ish will highly likely use DDR5 and a new socket at that point is logical. Quick google suggests AM5 and DDR5.
I wonder if PCIe5 will also be on the cards then? It might be a bit tight but once again it makes sense to design the socket around the no doubt tighter tolerances required by PCIe5.
P.S. not a defense of AMD behavior - just thoughts on your mate's conundrum.
badass
With it looking like Zen3 is to be the last AM4 CPU architecture*, realistically what additional performance will be on the table for them over Zen2? 20% probably. Mabe less.
I don't know about everyone else but I refuse to upgrade my system unless it's replacement is around twice as powerful at least otherwise it's just throwing away money for slightly taller bar charts.
All they are missing out on is that last 20%. They can still get a quad core last gen now and upgrade to a 12 core current gen later (16 cores? total waste of money with 2 memory channels!)
*Zen4 likely planned for late 2022 ish will highly likely use DDR5 and a new socket at that point is logical. Quick google suggests AM5 and DDR5.
I wonder if PCIe5 will also be on the cards then? It might be a bit tight but once again it makes sense to design the socket around the no doubt tighter tolerances required by PCIe5.
P.S. not a defense of AMD behavior - just thoughts on your mate's conundrum.
They went with a B450 anyway,as there was no time to wait about. Hard to say,but the problem is again,if the Zen2 parts hold their value,I can see Zen3 parts being a most cost effective way of upgrading. The issue is if the initial Zen2 parts are the best of what you can get,they will hold value like the Core i7s did,which in my experience meant they were stupidly priced relative to performance. IMHO,I think Zen3 parts are less likely to hold value if B550/X570 are the last AM4 generation,as only B550/X570 will want them.
Zen2 has Zen,Zen+ and Zen2 owners as an upgrade. If the earlier motherboards could use Zen3,then the Zen2 parts will be depreciated in value secondhand. The reason Zen+ parts are depreciated is because Zen2 is available.
You saw this with certain older generation Core i7s not being as cheap as you would expect,hence why I used Xeon E3 CPUs which less people knew about! ;) The same as the Phenom II X6 CPUs.
The problem is also,a higher end Zen3 part,especially with the rumoured IPC increases,and significantly lower latencies(8 core CCX),could be a decent jump over the lifespan of the rig. Also the whole stuff from AMD about segmenting PCI-E 4.0 - there are literally rebadged B450 motherboards for OEMs called B550A,which run PCI-E 4.0 fine. OEMs were happy to support PCI-E 4.0 but AMD forced them to pull support for DIY builders. Something B550 has also.
The last setup,lasted longer than planned - the original CPU was an Athlon II X3. A few years later,did look at a Phenom II X6 but these were not worth it for the price as they held their value,as I suspect all the AM2+ and AM3 owners,etc also wanted them. So got an FX6350 which seemed a decent upgrade for not much. The advantage of a motherboard which supported 3 generations of CPUs.
The whole point is I like to have more options especially for these kinds of builds where the motherboard won't be changed out for at least 4~5 years. It's much easier than spending everything in one go and buying a more expensive CPU,ie,you can slowly add to the rig over time,without splashing out huge amounts in one go. This reduces the amount of options,and B550 would some extra options into the mix.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
The problem is also,a higher end Zen3 part,especially with the rumoured IPC increases,and significantly lower latencies(8 core CCX),could be a decent jump over the lifespan of the rig. Also the whole stuff from AMD about segmenting PCI-E 4.0 - there are literally rebadged B450 motherboards for OEMs called B550A,which run PCI-E 4.0 fine. OEMs were happy to support PCI-E 4.0 but AMD forced them to pull support for DIY builders. Something B550 has also.
This is worth emphasising - plenty of B450 boards are able to run PCIe 4.0, and did so until AMD turned it off in microcode.
Asus even stated my board can handle it!
Xlucine
This is worth emphasising - plenty of B450 boards are able to run PCIe 4.0, and did so until AMD turned it off in microcode. Asus even stated my board can handle it!
My had a partial update too,which was removed.
BTW,forgot to add the Schenker laptop despite being B450 based,actually supports partial PCI-E 4.0,ie, for the M2 slot. It uses a custom motherboard,so don't know if its better quality than normal. The system is a custom model made by Clevo,who is a major ODM. Clevo is known to hack back support into older laptops,ie,their Z170 based socketed laptops,got CFL support.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5X-8vZtml8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5X-8vZtml8So it Steve was told Zen and Zen+ apparently cannot use 32MB BIOSes chips,even though there are B450/X470/X570 motherboards with 32MB BIOS chips which work fine with Zen+ for example. Even X570 motherboards with 16MB BIOS chips work with Zen+ too. So if it is true,AMD knowingly knew that their socket compatibility was doomed from the start then! :rolleyes:
It also appears MSI is the only company which is pushing AMD to force Zen3 compatibility,Asus does not give a damn,and Gigabyte and ASRock don't care either.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It also appears MSI is the only company which is pushing AMD to force Zen3 compatibility,Asus does not give a damn,and Gigabyte and ASRock don't care either.
MSI is the only one to have specifically marketed B450 boards as future proof, so this makes sense
Xlucine
MSI is the only one to have specifically marketed B450 boards as future proof, so this makes sense
For me its more like AMD knew of these limitations,and chose to let it slip by,for the last 12 months. As GN,said its really on AMD. I knew they played these stunts many years ago,I didn't think it would happen so quickly this time.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
It also appears MSI is the only company which is pushing AMD to force Zen3 compatibility,Asus does not give a damn,and Gigabyte and ASRock don't care either.
Scumbags… if only DFI were still here :help:
that is great news for the B450 crowd. Not sure who bought X470 recently though! Anyone?
Interesting to see they will require a full irreversible BIOS flash (how can they prevent you going back if your board supports no-chip flashing off a saved image?) Puzzles me that.
3dcandy
Oh cat is purring all over it in the t'other thread lol
Found the other thread :D
