Looks to be a world of difference between the Dyson and Gtech approaches.
I'm not qualified to make a judgement on whether these things can be over or under engineered - but hope whoever steps up make these things, manages to provide the steady supply of reliable devices needed to avoid unnecessary deaths.
KultiVator
Looks to be a world of difference between the Dyson and Gtech approaches.
I'm not qualified to make a judgement on whether these things can be over or under engineered - but hope whoever steps up make these things, manages to provide the steady supply of reliable devices needed to avoid unnecessary deaths.
I always like the definition of a good engineer as someone who could do for a quid what any idiot can do for a tenner. By that metric, the Gtech one looks pretty awesome. Lots of standard and some 3D printed parts on there, and it sounds like they will be opening up the design in which case we can expect it to evolve pretty fast.
I would trust the reliability of the Gtech products over Dyson! ;)
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I would trust the reliability of the Gtech products over Dyson! ;)
I'm sure the Dyson would be reliable for years to come. That's kind of the problem, we only need something that is reliable for the next few months, and maintainable with bits you would find laying about in a hospital.
Kind of like the 80's “The Great Egg Race” program but with rather higher stakes :D
DanceswithUnix
I'm sure the Dyson would be reliable for years to come. That's kind of the problem, we only need something that is reliable for the next few months, and maintainable with bits you would find laying about in a hospital.
Kind of like the 80's “The Great Egg Race” program but with rather higher stakes :D
Shame their proper products probably don't last years either! ;):P
While I applaud the UK companies making ventilators quickly I do find it a little annoying that it would seem the UK are paying for 15k units but essentially giving 4k away to other countries…. at the very least I'm hoping that Dyson and others are offering these things up at cost to the UK rather than the usual ‘medical markup’(ventilators seem to sell for £25,000 by the looks of it, they don't cost anywhere near that to make)
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Shame their proper products probably don't last years either! ;):P
I hear Dyson's recent stuff isn't so good. Shame, our DC04 must now be 20 years old and still works just fine.
I like how simple the gtech design is. There are a lot of different settings involved with venting a patient properly, beyond just squeezing some air in to them, but there's no reason the control software for their setup couldn't be programmed to work. It also needs a clear readout of what those settings are, and easy adjustability for overworked medical staff.
The real issue here is that Dyson is a piece of work.
Why is there so much publicity on this? There are EXISTING manufacturers which put their offer in and it wasnt reviewed in time… the government literally ignored existing and went straight to dyson and accepted it.
Look at all the sudden publicity when dyson havent provided a single thing yet! This is really wrong, publicise it WHEN they deliver and we really shouldnt be having people develop new ventilators and shipping version 0 products.
We dont have enough NHS staff that are trained for working ventilators, we are now going to have a situation where there are different types of ventilators making training even more difficult! Its a waste of time and it seems a publicity stunt for the company (and dyson himself) who has shown they dont care about being british (neither do I) when they relocated straight away after pushing for brexit they then go to singapore.
DanceswithUnix
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Shame their proper products probably don't last years either! ;):P
I hear Dyson's recent stuff isn't so good. Shame, our DC04 must now be 20 years old and still works just fine.
I have a 14 year old regularly-used DC08 that's still fine. If memory serves, manufacturing was relocated for later ranges.
Hicks12
The real issue here is that Dyson is a piece of work.
Why is there so much publicity on this? There are EXISTING manufacturers which put their offer in and it wasnt reviewed in time… the government literally ignored existing and went straight to dyson and accepted it.
You must have missed
articles such as this one, where “a consortium of more than a dozen companies aims to build ventilators based on two existing designs” (The Ventilator Challenge UK working with Penlon and Smiths) - the Dyson order isn't to the exclusion of the other parties, whose efforts have had just as much publicity (at least as far as the Beeb articles go).
Blimey , seems one of our neighbours was taken into hospital last night with suspected Corvid.
I hear he has been put on one of those new Dyson ventilators and is now picking up nicely.
mers
Blimey , seems one of our neighbours was taken into hospital last night with suspected Corvid.
I hear he has been put on one of those new Dyson ventilators and is now picking up nicely.
A Dyson spokesperson has said CoVent machines will be ready from early April.
chinf
You must have missed articles such as this one, where “a consortium of more than a dozen companies aims to build ventilators based on two existing designs” (The Ventilator Challenge UK working with Penlon and Smiths) - the Dyson order isn't to the exclusion of the other parties, whose efforts have had just as much publicity (at least as far as the Beeb articles go).
That article specifically titles Dyson and says Dyson everywhere, this is what I mean!Why is dyson so important here when its just a basic company who will go outside of UK for tax breaks anyway
I was talking about the new Dyson products not lasting as long as older products they made!
TeePee
A Dyson spokesperson has said CoVent machines will be ready from early April.
Its a joke I think.
Building a ventilator that meets the essential requirements of the MHRA is not hard. At all. The tech is ancient and not in patent and the thing looks to be built out of bent sheet metal, likely using industrial lego tubing inside and their existing motor tech as they have it, it works and they know the issues. Modern ventilators are, like most medical kit, insanely expensive, complex and full of patented stuff. But, the fundamentals are not hard to do, especially with a bunch of engineers who really know their stuff. There are a load of optional MHRA criteria which are nice to haves but fulfilling the essentials isn't hard and I reckon most people on here with a couple of weeks to do the research could design and build one. The clever part is to build one which can be produced fast and will be reliable as you don't have time for testing. I'd personally go for a mostly mechanically moderated design with a couple of timers for varying respiratory rate and so on. Once that really simple stuff is in place, I'd pop in a micro controller with firmware that can be updated to enable the optional criteria later on after the thing has been built. What happens a lot in medical devices is you have a fancy ASIC type thing with a brain box, NAND, etc which gives you access to the fancy stuff but you also have, below that, a very simple system that kicks in if the fancy stuff fails. Example is a pacemaker where you have all the fancy stuff but beneath that you have a capacitor bank, a timer and a battery which just paces at a specific rate and high outputs to keep the patient alive if the device's brains get mushed.
That design looks pretty damned awesome I must say. You're going to have a whole load of people who have never touched a ventilator running these things under supervision from a distance and so simplicity is essential. The mobility side of things is great too as the whole environment is going to be very fluid and fast moving so having these things bolted to the bedside is great.
I'm really hoping I can get back to work for when the crisis really hits my home town but I don't think they're going to let me near. I've got a suppressed immune system and so the best thing I can do is to not get sick and take up resources as minor infections have a habit of trying to kill me. It's a standing joke that I have a good crack at dying from a simple bug roughly every 18 months. I'm therefore due. So I'm sat at home, making hand sanitiser for the vulnerable who can't get any, fixing the neighbours household appliances, reading, playing games I have never got around to playing, thinking of a fun way to fix our downstairs bog and picking locks out of boredom and frustration.
1.5 weeks off work and I'm going utterly mad but on the upside, my 12 core beast of a CPU is adding to the distributed compute effort AND keeping my house warm. I'm quite pleased that it can now sustain full load on all but two 24 logical cores (I think it leaves them part loaded so Windows still works) at a stable 4.0GHz and hovers around 75C. On the downside, my AMD GPU doesn't appear to be used much as they seem to rely on CUDA support for any real grunt. It's a shame as the Vega64 is a great compute card, even if it's a little saggy as a graphics card.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I was talking about the new Dyson products not lasting as long as older products they made!
Its a joke I think.
Ah, because ‘Picking up’ and Dyson makes vacuum cleaners… I see.. Yes.. There it is…
Looks like the original Star Trek medical monitors
Those who thought that the Gtech solution was cool might be disappointed by the following update from
Worcester News:
—————
CITY-BASED manufacture Gtech has been told by the government to not produce much-needed ventilators less than a week after getting the go-ahead, the company’s chief executive has said.
Nick Grey, chief executive of Gtech, said he had been advised by the government on Thursday (March 27) to not push forward with production of ventilators, despite answering a call for help to assist in producing more than 30,000 ventilators, less than two weeks ago.
A statement from the Gtech chief executive said: “Thank you so much for offering to help Gtech with our medical ventilator. I have been absolutely overwhelmed by everyone’s support and generosity.
“On Friday (March 20), the cabinet and medical group co-ordinating the project gave us the go ahead to prepare for production.
“However last evening (March 26) they advised that they did not want us to proceed at this time.
“Everyone involved can be proud that we were ready to respond to the nation needs and start production in such a short time.
“We will still complete and publish our design as there has been a lot of interest for it from around the world.
“Thanks again for all your support and Gtech stand ready to go into production with your support should they be asked to do so.”
The government has been contacted for comment.
obviously there's lots of panicking and people trying to do what's best, and loads of these things are being made around the world, but if hospitals usually just have a tiny number and tens or hundreds of thousands of them are now being made around the world, what is going to happen to them all once we've got a grip on this and a cure to the virus? sure, some people will say it's necessary etc etc etc and one problem at a time, so don't worry about that, but the question still stands, what will happen to them all when they aren't required? scrap pile, recycled, what?
Unique
, but the question still stands, what will happen to them all when they aren't required? scrap pile, recycled, what?
I quite liked the look of the Gtech one partly for that reason. There seemed to be a lot of general purpose parts there like the pressure regulator valve that are cheap and could happily end up on ebay for re-use. Other parts like the syringes are disposable anyway.
OTOH I am baffled by the Dyson saying theirs uses one of their digital motors. Much though I like my Dyson hand held vacuum, that motor makes a real racket and I would hate to be in a converted conference center makeshift hospital room with 100 of them screaming away.
Edit: China simply donated their spare machines to Italy, for once dumping their waste on another country :)
philehidiot
It's a shame as the Vega64 is a great compute card, even if it's a little saggy as a graphics card.
I'm getting idle times, but my Vega56 is seeing a reasonable amount of work. The two of us currently top producers in the Hexus team chart are Vega 56 users. Are you in a team?
I did notice my wife had installed and configured the client and was only folding on her CPU until I did a reboot. Now it has found her RX480. Had a similar problem with the RX570 VR rig downstairs. If you are seeing no GPU work at all then that isn't right and it needs a kick.
Sold my Dyson after a year, cheap plastic rubbish even if the technology is good.
Also are Dyson gonna sell these at 4x as much as everyone else like all their other products?
Unique
sure, some people will say it's necessary
I think most people would say that.
DanceswithUnix
I'm getting idle times, but my Vega56 is seeing a reasonable amount of work. The two of us currently top producers in the Hexus team chart are Vega 56 users. Are you in a team?
I did notice my wife had installed and configured the client and was only folding on her CPU until I did a reboot. Now it has found her RX480. Had a similar problem with the RX570 VR rig downstairs. If you are seeing no GPU work at all then that isn't right and it needs a kick.
I have seen GPU work once or twice but the rest of the time it has been stood idle. When it was getting used, it was always under 15%. There's a mention about ensuring the right version of the drivers is on and then ensuring they don't get updated.
philehidiot
I have seen GPU work once or twice but the rest of the time it has been stood idle. When it was getting used, it was always under 15%. There's a mention about ensuring the right version of the drivers is on and then ensuring they don't get updated.
Windows Task Manager says my GPU is almost idle when folding, but the Performance tab in Radeon Software says it is over 90% and drawing lots of Watts. Apparently I am running 19.12.2, a bit old now but complaints about stability in the latest drivers have put me off the upgrade.
Edit: Logs say it hasn't had anything to fold for over an hour now though. That seems sadly common.
This is all concept art, no shots of a working prototype? I'm calling bulls**t until we see something coming off a production line. Dyson is legendary for being full of it, will he deliver units to hospitals in his electric car?
DrillSgt
This is all concept art, no shots of a working prototype?
*Shrug*, working prototypes never look pretty, specially on something designed this rapidly.
As an engineer I really like the look of the Gtech one, but I imagine the image of the prototype will make most people think “I don't want my life in the hands of that thing” looking at a device with a PSU dangling in the open. But look at the other videos, the assembly guide shows an entirely mechanical device. That leads you to the calibration video, which has a different mechanical device. None of these prototypes seem to be the same as the animated diagram in the video shown here. I think they rushed out too much information there before it was ready.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
DanceswithUnix
I'm sure the Dyson would be reliable for years to come. That's kind of the problem, we only need something that is reliable for the next few months, and maintainable with bits you would find laying about in a hospital.
Kind of like the 80's “The Great Egg Race” program but with rather higher stakes :D
Shame their proper products probably don't last years either! ;):P
Really, I've had the same Dyson vac for over 10 years and it still works fine.
Gh0sty
Really, I've had the same Dyson vac for over 10 years and it still works fine.
Their earlier products were made in the UK,but that great supporter of UK manufacturing,Dyson,fired all his workers and moved production to Malaysia,and ever since reliability has started to become progressively worse with newer models. I never understood why Miele could still have a big factory in Germany to make their vaccuum cleaners,and more expensive Dyson “has” to make it in Malaysia.
OTH,I have one of the UK made Dualit toasters which is well over 20 years old. They too are slowly moving production to China it appears! :(
there is nothing to worry about, what is the alternative of it
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I never understood why Miele could still have a big factory in Germany to make their vaccuum cleaners,and more expensive Dyson “has” to make it in Malaysia.
If Dyson machines are less reliable, it is because they have either accepted that is the level they want to hit or they got sloppy. Simple as that.
It does surprise me that companies don't move production to the areas of South Wales and Scotland that are well set up for it. The Raspberry Pi is hardly a high cost item and seems to be thriving well from a Welsh factory.
As someone who has helped set up production lines in the UK and abroad I have to say in my experience quality is not down to where an item is made but down to materials choice and whether the designing company keeps their eye on the ball. The factory will try and cut costs, materials purchasing is part of their job, and part of your job as an engineer is to keep on top of testing and approving possible second sources and equivalent components. But that's the same whether the factory is in the UK or anywhere else. Oversight is a whole lot easier when the factory is 10 minutes down the road as at my current employer, and one of the costs of manufacturing abroad is having a production engineer on site full time. The worst I have seen is manufacturing inside the M25. Costs were bonkers, it wasn't local enough to keep an easy eye on things but not far enough to keep someone always there. Best was getting a building big enough to move final assembly and test on site.
OTOH my recent purchase of a Bosch tumble dryer is one of the most disappointing things I have ever bought. The finish is OK but the basic design is junk, of the standard I would expect from a school project rather than an expensive item from a top tier company using a sensor system that clearly can't ever work reliably. It has one job, and clothes come out wet. So much for German engineering.
Dyson trade on brand, they were good, they are a well known name, but now the products have been outsourced and are essentially now a cheap copy of themselves.
Is there any more information as to why GTech have been put on standby, what about the other companies involved? Wonder if a friend of Dyson is in charge somewhere in the Govt. and has knocked all the others on the head for a brown envelope from his buddy…
DanceswithUnix
If Dyson machines are less reliable, it is because they have either accepted that is the level they want to hit or they got sloppy. Simple as that.
It does surprise me that companies don't move production to the areas of South Wales and Scotland that are well set up for it. The Raspberry Pi is hardly a high cost item and seems to be thriving well from a Welsh factory.
As someone who has helped set up production lines in the UK and abroad I have to say in my experience quality is not down to where an item is made but down to materials choice and whether the designing company keeps their eye on the ball. The factory will try and cut costs, materials purchasing is part of their job, and part of your job as an engineer is to keep on top of testing and approving possible second sources and equivalent components. But that's the same whether the factory is in the UK or anywhere else. Oversight is a whole lot easier when the factory is 10 minutes down the road as at my current employer, and one of the costs of manufacturing abroad is having a production engineer on site full time. The worst I have seen is manufacturing inside the M25. Costs were bonkers, it wasn't local enough to keep an easy eye on things but not far enough to keep someone always there. Best was getting a building big enough to move final assembly and test on site.
OTOH my recent purchase of a Bosch tumble dryer is one of the most disappointing things I have ever bought. The finish is OK but the basic design is junk, of the standard I would expect from a school project rather than an expensive item from a top tier company using a sensor system that clearly can't ever work reliably. It has one job, and clothes come out wet. So much for German engineering.
German labour costs are higher than Malaysia,and Dyson makes high priced items which were profitable even when made in the UK. German labour laws and costs are higher than the UK just like in France - its more of the “quick buck” mentality…coronavirus is exposing how much this country is reliant on external manufacturing of so many items. Even more so than Germany and France,despite them also moving production abroad.
Miele makes good quality vaccum cleaners,many of which are cheaper than Dyson,despite Malaysia having lower production costs. These are luxury products with a luxury price,so if such items cannot be made “profitably” in the UK when a RPi which costs £25 can,its all just excuses,especially when Dyson is always pushing the patriotic angle. UK companies don't won't to make anything in this country,and yet you have foreign companies from Japan,India,Germany,etc all having factories making stuff here.
Another problem when you subcontract abroad,companies will frequently change suppliers to cut costs and different companies have different levels of QC/QA. Then you might have several different revisions of the same basic model,which are slightly different internally depending on what supplier they use at any given time.More importantly when it comes to longterm supply of spare parts is a problem. Don't believe me - I can still get spare parts for my Dualit toaster despite it being 20 years old - even the old UK made Kenwood Chefs were the same. The new Kenwood Chefs are now made in China,since Delonghi bought the company up,with a big price increase in certain models. I don't know how long spare parts will be available for them.
Also my own experience from talking to people,is that a number of UK companies have asked for products exported from countries such as China to the UK to be of lower quality,than equivalent products exported to other markets to save on costs. I can semi confirm this when I have gone abroad and seen some of the Chinese rebadged products sold elsewhere. Some of the Chinese industrial quality tools,cooking equipment,etc costs the same as the rebadged lower quality crap you have here(also made in China) and actually can take some punishment.
Ahhh supply chain management, don't get me started lol
CAT-THE-FIFTH
I can still get spare parts for my Dualit toaster despite it being 20 years old
I have to say, I'm impressed that you bothered to fix a toaster! I designed and 3d printed spare parts for my dishwasher to keep it running, and am kicking myself that I didn't just buy some new bearings (again) for the old tumble dryer, but when one side of my toaster wouldn't stay down I must confess I just junked it. Looked more hassle that it was worth. And no, I don't know where the toaster that only lasted 5 years was made.
DanceswithUnix
I have to say, I'm impressed that you bothered to fix a toaster! I designed and 3d printed spare parts for my dishwasher to keep it running, and am kicking myself that I didn't just buy some new bearings (again) for the old tumble dryer, but when one side of my toaster wouldn't stay down I must confess I just junked it. Looked more hassle that it was worth. And no, I don't know where the toaster that only lasted 5 years was made.
In fact I just checked when the toaster was made - its actually from the mid 1990s!:eek:
It hasn't broken yet! :P But I checked on their website and all the major parts are available:
https://www.dualit.com/support/toastershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmfpHLcrhFgIts very easy to replace the elements in them.
The same thing with the old Kenwood Chef mixers,the lifespan was measured in decades - 30 years isn't unheard off.
With everyone rushing to design low-cost ventilators now, it's important to remember that these are medical devices that need to perform very delicate functions. It's very easy to do more harm than good when you're relying on good intentions as opposed to subject matter expertise. For some context, see this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vLPefHYWpY
Which is why they have to be approved before they can be used
Jonj1611
Which is why they have to be approved before they can be used
Which is what I told people in the other thread,and they wouldn't believe me.
Also regarding the lockdown,until we get sufficient ventilator capacity,the lockdown is going to last longer. So that is the other problem,rush them out to reduce the length of the lockdown and reduce the testing so you can deploy them quicker.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
Which is what I told people in the other thread,and they wouldn't believe me.
Also regarding the lockdown,until we get sufficient ventilator capacity,the lockdown is going to last longer. So that is the other problem,rush them out to reduce the length of the lockdown and reduce the testing so you can deploy them quicker.
How will ventilator capacity affect lockdown duration?
I'd have thought it will only be relevant to survival rate.
Looks like The Donald is going to be sending some vents to help.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52213439Current estimate for vents needed in the US is about 20,000.
My State has already started dismantling field hospitals. I don't think any of them ever saw a patient.
DrillSgt
How will ventilator capacity affect lockdown duration?
I'd have thought it will only be relevant to survival rate.
The lockdown is there to manage the numbers of patients using ICU beds(which have ventilators),so if you have less ventilator capacity its easier to hit the ICU bed capacity quicker. If there is greater capacity the health system can manage more ill people,so the lockdown can be shorter overall,and has less chance of being overwhelmed. The same goes with PPE,so this is why you have to have stockpiles of those too.
To put it in context,the US has 173000 ventilators for just over 300 million people,the UK has nearly 10000 currently for 66 million people including the ones we managed to buy recently. It needs between 12000~18000 for the peak at least according to government,and they are trying to have around 30000 ventilators purchased.
Still find it impressive how quickly this was designed and engineered.
Has it been delivered yet? ETA was start of April, just wondering if they've been seen in the wild yet…
Smudger
Has it been delivered yet? ETA was start of April, just wondering if they've been seen in the wild yet…
They were cancelled as not required. Only a quarter of the available ventilators have been used, there has been no need for additional vents.
Be interesting to see what costs have been incurred due to this..
Why all the hate for Dyson products? Never had a Dyson product go bad on me. Rather I'd upgrade instead before the thing broke (every 5 years or so!)