Nvidia once again overestimating the demand. As always this is going to end up jacking up next gen cards so they are able to move the stock they have of the current one out.

Here's a crazy notion, nVidia, why don't you take the cost of those little bundled extras, and subtract them from the price, instead? Plus a bit extra. It's crazy to respond to demand drops with price drops, I know, way out there, but why not give it a shot? You might remember what it's like to ship products without triple digit margins.

it's a residual value and future value thing.

never drop the price, always add value to the product. Then a new product doesn't need to launch at a cheaper price.

same for cars - don't discount them down, add extra equipment, warranty, 0% finance etc.

aidanjt
Here's a crazy notion, nVidia, why don't you take the cost of those little bundled extras, and subtract them from the price, instead? Plus a bit extra. It's crazy to respond to demand drops with price drops, I know, way out there, but why not give it a shot? You might remember what it's like to ship products without triple digit margins.

I wouldn't be surprised if nvidia are looking to keep the GTX 10 series high in price, just so they can then launch the GTX 11/2000 series at even higher prices.

I agree broadly with all of the above…
This sets a precedant that next gen cards are going to be a fair bit higher than current gen

The Hand;3991118
I wouldn't be surprised if nvidia are looking to keep the GTX 10 series high in price, just so they can then launch the GTX 11/2000 series at even higher prices.

I mentioned this in another thread. The mining craze has quite simply pumped up prices high enough for long enough that consumers have become accustomed to the price and manufacturers have become accustomed to the margins. It's like petrol - when supply goes up, the prices may come down by a penny but they went up 5P due to the lack of supply (which is artificially modulated) so the margin goes up (obviously there are constant increases in operating costs but this is one way of increasing income to offset those and maintain / increase profits to keep shareholders happy).

I think there's now inertia on prices and they will not go down. If we see a release at the same price point I'll be impressed. If we see a release at a higher price point, I'll be upset. It's that simple. I will look at it and go - “new hobby” or “get a console”. I'm not rich but I am selling my flat to move in with the missus and have plenty of disposible cash at the moment so my point is that if someone with that much disposible cash and eagerness to upgrade is being priced out of the market, what are they doing to the vast majority of their market?

To be fair I've already moved. Retro gaming on a Pi3+ is my hobby now ;)

philehidiot
The mining craze has quite simply pumped up prices high enough for long enough that consumers have become accustomed to the price

If that were the case the supply side wouldn't be crying about lack of demand.

aidanjt
If that were the case the supply side wouldn't be crying about lack of demand.

Wasn't there a story a month or so ago that Nvidia have a huge stock of unsold GPU's? It's not the lack of supply. It's the pricing.
Gamers are just not buying….and now that cryptomining isn't so profitable - neither are the miners.

ohmaheid

aidanjt
If that were the case the supply side wouldn't be crying about lack of demand.

Wasn't there a story a month or so ago that Nvidia have a huge stock of unsold GPU's? It's not the lack of supply. It's the pricing.
Gamers are just not buying….and now that cryptomining isn't so profitable - neither are the miners.

Sums it up 100%, what gamer is going to buy this when next gen it around the corner ?

ohmaheid
Wasn't there a story a month or so ago that Nvidia have a huge stock of unsold GPU's? It's not the lack of supply. It's the pricing.
Gamers are just not buying….and now that cryptomining isn't so profitable - neither are the miners.

Yup. Gamers don't have mug written across their foreheads, contrary to what the supply chain apparently thinks. Why would any sane person pay, what is effectively still above MSRP, for a 2 year old GPU that has a successor pretty much around the corner? They're going to have to do a lot better than a few gimmicky inducements. Unless that free SSD can hold my entire Steam library, I ain't biting.

I already have 6 SSDs.
Give me a 1060 6GB, for a smidgen under £200 and I might be tempted. Otherwise, I don't want to know.

The prices are just too high.

aidanjt
If that were the case the supply side wouldn't be crying about lack of demand.

Past tense - mining craze upped prices for long enough to alter customer expectations. Not saying the mining effect is there now but the consequences of that are. The consequences are altered perceptions of value and also likely an oversupply as NVidia and partners probably overproduced to try and capitalise but, like last time this happened, the lead time from ordering to getting GPUs meant that the craze had died off before hand. Now they're left with stock that they don't want to devalue as it'll affect the value of the next generation.

aidanjt
Yup. Gamers don't have mug written across their foreheads, contrary to what the supply chain apparently thinks. Why would any sane person pay, what is effectively still above MSRP, for a 2 year old GPU that has a successor pretty much around the corner? They're going to have to do a lot better than a few gimmicky inducements. Unless that free SSD can hold my entire Steam library, I ain't biting.

Yep.

You want me to buy a GPU just to get a Kingston SSD? Make it a Samsung and it'd be worth it.

With the 1180 slated for launch within the next couple of months, it wouldn't be overly smart to buy in to the 10 series for gaming or mining.

Zak33
it's a residual value and future value thing.

never drop the price, always add value to the product. Then a new product doesn't need to launch at a cheaper price.

same for cars - don't discount them down, add extra equipment, warranty, 0% finance etc.

Trouble is, it runs the ridk of hacking off buyers. Especially on cars.

I had that argument with my local BMW dealer. With a 3-year old M3 (bought, new, from that dealer) I went in to inquire about a new one. Turns out they'd stuck ten grand on the price but included “free” air-con and sound system.

Free? Like flip it's free. It's largd part of the £10k price increase. And as for the sound system, I had a £3+ sound system I wanted to transfer fro the old car, a system that had been VERY carefully selected after hours of research, testing and auditioning and which I had, and still have, no doubt would (for my tzstes at least) blow the knickers off anything they fitted ss standard.

They wouldn't even quote with those items as a delete-option. Now, had it been a car coming direct from stock I could understznd that, but they'd already mzde of point of telling me that M-series cars weren't started on the assembly line until a confirmed order was placed by the customer …. which is why the last one had taken three months to arrive.

Same logic applies go NVidea …. an SSD is only of value go a customer thzt not only needs one, but needs that one.

It all depends whether a customer wants the ‘bundled’ item. I bought a high-end kitchen blender (Vitamix) I'd ber hesitating about because sn offer bundled the dry-goods jug, and I wanted it. The combined value tipped me over the edge into a purchase decision. But bundljng aircon and sound system tipped me the other way - I didnt buy the car.

With graphics card, I don't want sundry tat bundled, so UNLESS I wanted that size, make and model of SSD, bundljng it is s disincentive to me. Cut the price instead.

Saracen
…snip….

I feel like either you have had a long day, or using a device you don't usually use… either way I'm really disappointed the story didn't end with you getting a new M3 without the “mandatory” stereo option.

Biscuit
I feel like either you have had a long day, or using a device you don't usually use… either way I'm really disappointed the story didn't end with you getting a new M3 without the “mandatory” stereo option.

I am still at the part an audio system for a car costs £10000,I can buy a WHOLE car for £10000….probably also with aircon and a radio included!! :p

Biscuit
I feel like either you have had a long day, or using a device you don't usually use… either way I'm really disappointed the story didn't end with you getting a new M3 without the “mandatory” stereo option.

Well, I ended up with an M3 without a BMW-supplied stereo …. or air-con. I just kept the one I had. Saved a blooming fortune, too. But I guess the point of the story was that “bundled” extras can be what stops people buying. With the M3 it stopped me for long enough to start thinking about comparative value of keeping existing one versus replacing it for long enough to bring me to my senses.

philehidiot
Now they're left with stock that they don't want to devalue as it'll affect the value of the next generation.

I get what you're saying, but the reality is they're already devalued, only the miners were prepared to spend stupid money on GPUs because it was turning them a profit of 2-3+ times the cost of the cards even at wildly inflated prices. I highly doubt consumers were impressed with the MSRP at launch, much less the inflated prices at the mining peak. I'm fairly confident that the only place the overton window has truly shifted is in the minds of the manufacturers and vendors and they're only really seeing the reality now that the mining craze is over and demand has dropped off a cliff. And I think we can see that reflected in the kinds of GPUs people are actually running on Steam, they're majority still around the £150-300 MSRP mark, the 1070 just about breaks the 3% mark, and I think that's principally because 1440p monitors are starting to become more commonplace that a significant number were willing to stretch the budget. But if the 1150 Ti/1160 can power 1440p at <£300 they're not going to bite in the same volume.

/ranty mcrantface

This has to be taken with a container full of salt:

https://wccftech.com/nvidias-next-generation-graphics-cards-specifications-pricing-and-nomenclature-details/

Here is where things get even more interesting, not only is NVIDIA planning not to align the 120W next-gen GPU with the GTX 1060 but they are planning to charge approximately twice as much as the 1060 for it. The good thing is, however, that this philosophy does not appear to be valid for the higher end lineups. These are the expected MSRPs that AIB and vendors have been informed of by NVIDIA:

The 120W NVIDIA next-gen Turing GPU will be priced around $499 MSRP.
The 150W NVIDIA next-gen Turing GPU will be priced around $599 MSRP.
The 180W NVIDIA next-gen Turing GPU will be priced around $699-749 MSRP.

At the same time,

The GeForce GTX 1080 Ti MSRP will drop in price by $100.
The GeForce GTX 1080 MSRP will drop in price by $50.

This would have very interesting implications for the market depth that NVIDIA is trying to tap into. Similar to what Intel is trying to achieve with mainstreaming the i9 segment and what AMD successfully achieved with Ryzen, NVIDIA is trying to expand the market depth and add on a higher priced segment to the same market. It appears that instead of entirely replacing the Pascal series, what they are trying to do is introduce a lineup that will fit snuggly on top of the same.

This would be in contrast to their philosophy before – which was usually a complete replacement of old cards. All things considered, this is good news for gamers, since they will now have more value at every price point. Unfortunately, however, we were also told that the manufacturing cost for these cards is barely below the MSRP so we might see cards sell significantly above the MSRP for quite some time.

It would be interesting to see the chip sizes on these - if they are bigger than the chip in the GTX1080TI at over 500MM2,it might explain the pricing.

OTH,if the lower end chip is like 300MM2 or something like that,then I suspect Nvidia might be having another record quarter! ;)

CAT-THE-FIFTH
OTH,if the lower end chip is like 300MM2 or something like that,then I suspect Nvidia might be having another record quarter! ;)

But only if there's another GPU mining boom in response to it. If not, then I'm pretty sure they're going to have to realign with consumers with cap in hand.

aidanjt
But only if there's another GPU mining boom in response to it. If not, then I'm pretty sure they're going to have to realign with consumers with cap in hand.

I doubt it. Look at what happened when Nvidia rebranded its large gaming chips as Titan. A top bin 500MM2 to 600M2 Fermi chip was $500(GTX580). Now look at how much a top bin 500MM2 to 600MM2 gaming chip costs - over $1000. Yet when it was pointed out on forums this was happening even to this day “enthusiasts” defended it,saying its “not the same” since “its a new name” and a “new tier” and now see what has happened to graphics cards pricing. Others were saying but,but these cost more to make,and Nvidia needs the money.

Now their margins are double that of the Fermi days. Hmm.

Never saw that happening.

So Nvidia can try their luck,and it will work cause “people”. After all they managed sell a few Titan V fine for a few $1000.

Don't think the PC market is the same as it used to be. There is a slow shift in people paying more and more for graphics cards and companies like JPR seem to confirm this.

Shout “its the bestest” and people will buy it,just like £1200 smartphones(well I suppose a £1000 graphics card would be better value for me than a £1000 phone! ;) ).

Its not also helped by AMD giving up too,since it didn't matter if they launched cards 6 to 9 months before Nvidia(think HD5000 series),people just waited for cheaper Fermi ones,and in the end see what happens when they make decentish CPUs?? Look at how Ryzen already has an effect and that is despite its issues.

So unless AMD really has something hidden as a surprise,it literally is up to Intel now(!),otherwise Nvidia can do what it wants.

Until the end of 2019 or even 2020,I think Nvidia holds all the cards.

Unless you are willing to keep your old card,buy a console,stop gaming,etc you will be locked into whatever pricing they want to implement.

I fear we might start seeing even more stagnation especially if you are a sub £300 gamer. I could be wrong and I wish to be wrong.

Sure there's a sucker born every minute. But you might notice a distinct lack of Titan-anything in the list of GPUs in the steam hardware survey. The actual volumes are so insignificant that it can't get a line item at all. Without the mining craze providing an actual profit incentive to buy overprowered/priced GPUs, they're going to be hard pressed to find enough suckers to feed bloated margins since very very few are that careless with money as to spend over £300 on a single part willy nilly. And if AMD actually shows up to the party for a change they're going to be doubly squeezed. If that happens they'll have no choice but to slash prices, which will feed into resentment and brand loyalty erosion. And that's not a recipe for future long term success.

Rubbish… Nobody is buying low(er) end GPUs anymore because the Ryzen APUs have comparable/similar/close GPU performance at a fraction of the price, size and power consumption. You either buy high(er) end GPUs or not at all.

preter_s
Rubbish… Nobody is buying low(er) end GPUs anymore because the Ryzen APUs have comparable/similar/close GPU performance at a fraction of the price, size and power consumption. You either buy high(er) end GPUs or not at all.

Also this is standard marketing trickery. Never give a cash discount, that's a loss in revenue & affects the pricing of the new upcoming products. Bundle something worthless, but with a sticker price that the consumer typically has to pay full retail price for.

Eg. Nvidia asked around for clearance items going for a song - find out that Kingston wants to get rid of these excess inventory SSDs. Assuming the Kingston SSD probably has a retail sticker price of $100, which is the consumer perception of its worth. However, it being an old/unpopular/slow moving item, Kingston would probably be happy to dump it at $50 to make way for newer products. But Kingston also doesn't want to slash the cash price by 50%! So they work in cahoots with Nvidia - both get to clear old unwanted stock. Both appear to be giving consumers a lot of value for the bundle when that's not really true.

Consumers stump up the cash thinking they are getting the sticker price worth when really they are getting what they didn't really want (faster GPUs and Samsung SSDs) just cos it “appears” cheap.