Wonder what the cooling will be like on the Founders edition
Trucks look good though, specially if the numbers are true.
Had to stretch myself a bit to buy a Tesla Model S!
Would love one of these new Roadsters but definitely way out of my budget :(
Hopefully they get the cooling right and you could use it as a track car, otherwise it would be an expensive car for day to day use!
Tesla's new Roadster caused a bit of a surprise as, with a touch of theatre, it drove out of the back of the Tesla Semi trailer …
Tesla just went full-Knight Rider…. :O_o1:
scaryjim
Tesla just went full-Knight Rider…. :O_o1:
I'm afraid not, Michael.
Knight Rider requires a 5-litre V8 engine and actually sounds good revving up.
Tesla just goes
whiper-whisper… :lol:
whisper whisper, but they're having a lot of trouble making the Model 3.
But… NEW CARS!
Tesla's new Roadster is “the quickest car in the world”
…in a straight line. With that massive range, it isn't going to be light and I couldn't find a weight for it.
The biggest gain in the truck is probably the aerodynamics. I think I remember reading a few years' ago about someone petitioning the EU to change the current regulations on truck sizes to allow them to be more aerodynamic and the savings it would make.
TeePee
whisper whisper, but they're having a lot of trouble making the Model 3.
But… NEW CARS!
I appreciate the sentiment of them trying to distract investors/shareholders from their current production problems (the BBC's article does bring that up:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42021713), but I doubt not developing new products would address the issue, and it makes sense from a company's point of view to keep designers etc. busy with something else.
Gerrard
…in a straight line. With that massive range, it isn't going to be light and I couldn't find a weight for it.
It's a 200kWh battery, being promised in 2020. Tesla's older S/X battery, a Panasonic co-developed 18650 cell, hits 250Wh/kg. The newer 2170 cells for the 3/Semi are closer to 320Wh/kg. Assuming no improvements between now & 2020, then that's 625kg of battery. That's a false assumption - it'll be less than 500kg.
The original Roadster was 1.3 tonnes, of which 450kg was battery, so… there's no reason to believe it won't hit a similar weight point as the original Roadster, which is heavy compared to something like an Elise or MX5, but they're talking better-than-Veyron performance, at a weight a good 33% lower.
with the rise in electricity. ill stick with a biodiesal dodge ram 1500. their is always some fast food place trying to cut cost of cooking oil disposal.
directhex
It's a 200kWh battery, being promised in 2020. Tesla's older S/X battery, a Panasonic co-developed 18650 cell, hits 250Wh/kg. The newer 2170 cells for the 3/Semi are closer to 320Wh/kg. Assuming no improvements between now & 2020, then that's 625kg of battery. That's a false assumption - it'll be less than 500kg.
I couldn't find any confirmation about the energy density of the 2170 as there doesn't appear to be a reliable source for their capacity of 5.75Ah. Whatever it is now, I don't think it will improve as it is already in production for the 3 and there is no doubt quite the lead time to test and design these. Add in all the extra ancilliaries and 625kg would be a minimum for a 200kWh battery. For a sports car I would have thought having the “normal” range of 300miles and making it lighter would be better, but I guess the extra range is actually a side-effect of needing more cells to provide the extra power.
Gerrard
I guess the extra range is actually a side-effect of needing more cells to provide the extra power.
This is spot-on. More cells = more amps that can be pulled without busting the battery. Weirdly enough, more cells = more range too. Electric cars are weird.
Nice stat about the aerodynamics of the truck, just a shame it's entirely pointless.
coefficient of drag (cd) is a nice brochure number et all but cda (coefficient of drag x front area) is the real number that matters and I think the truck might just loose on that one.
The chiron also has a very poor cd by modern standards, mainly because it's designed not to take off at 270mph…
Most modern bog standard cars are under 0.3, aerodynamic things like the prius and other tesla's are under 0.25, do wonder what that new roadster is!
That truck will need a portion of the trailer to store its batteries…. 80% charge in 30mins sounds impressive though depends on how many kw's that is. Shame though that it has a range of a car and not a truck and wont be able to last a typical truck drivers shift without re-charging which is a big no-no when on the clock
scaryjim
Tesla just went full-Knight Rider…. :O_o1:
A couple more prototypes and they could remake the Italian Job (again):D
Gerrard
I appreciate the sentiment of them trying to distract investors/shareholders from their current production problems (the BBC's article does bring that up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42021713), but I doubt not developing new products would address the issue, and it makes sense from a company's point of view to keep designers etc. busy with something else.
Distracting investors is the whole point. The company is valued higher than Ford! It's insane. The mystery is how long they can continue to pull in funding to continue operations while losing money on every car they sell.
TeePee
whisper whisper, but they're having a lot of trouble making the Model 3.
But… NEW CARS!
This car won't come out for 3-4 years so they don't have to worry about their mass production for a while.
TeePee
Distracting investors is the whole point. The company is valued higher than Ford! It's insane. The mystery is how long they can continue to pull in funding to continue operations while losing money on every car they sell.
I guess investors are taking the long view. Amazon lost money for years as the business was being built. Automotive production, particularly at the cutting edge, isn't a cheap start up.
peterb
I guess investors are taking the long view. Amazon lost money for years as the business was being built. Automotive production, particularly at the cutting edge, isn't a cheap start up.
Amazon wasn't in the same kind of situation mind.
They where building infrastructure for distribution of multiple products. Not manufacturing of a very low margin product, one where they've massively missed every target.
TheAnimus
Amazon wasn't in the same kind of situation mind.
They where building infrastructure for distribution of multiple products. Not manufacturing of a very low margin product, one where they've massively missed every target.
True, but the principle is similar. Most investors are interested in short term returns, not the long game. One might ask the same about many of the same high tech ventures, SpaceX for example, where the costs are even greater, and the possibility of a return on investment even further away (but if it comes good, the potential return is very good). Compared with that though, Tesla looks almost blue chip!
peterb
True, but the principle is similar. Most investors are interested in short term returns, not the long game. One might ask the same about many of the same high tech ventures, SpaceX for example, where the costs are even greater, and the possibility of a return on investment even further away (but if it comes good, the potential return is very good). Compared with that though, Tesla looks almost blue chip!
SpaceX is a private company and does not publish it's finances. However, based on leaks, they have a little under half the value of Tesla. They made profits in 2013 and 2014, and a loss of 260M in 2015 (They were grounded for a crash). Forecasts were for $55M profit in 2016, but no data is available. SpaceX may have huge potential, but they have a decent revenue stream and potential for profitability in the short term. Tesla will lose a Billion dollars this year.
“Based on leaks” isn't really a good basis for comparison. Tesla is manufacturing and selling cars, and while it may be a while to recoup the start up investment, the have the ‘potential :)’ to do so. EV sales, while still a small part of overall car sales, is set to grow. Tesla are going for the high end of the market, others like Nissan are going for higher volume lower value models. There is room for both.
The electric truck is an interesting development as cities look to restrict the movement of diesel vehicles in city centres. The new EV London taxi cab (a hybrid) is an example of a response to those moves.
peterb
“Based on leaks” isn't really a good basis for comparison. Tesla is manufacturing and selling cars, and while it may be a while to recoup the start up investment, the have the ‘potential :)’ to do so. EV sales, while still a small part of overall car sales, is set to grow. Tesla are going for the high end of the market, others like Nissan are going for higher volume lower value models. There is room for both.
The electric truck is an interesting development as cities look to restrict the movement of diesel vehicles in city centres. The new EV London taxi cab (a hybrid) is an example of a response to those moves.
Leaked or not, SpaceX is a viable company in it's present form, and may already be profitable. Tesla is not.
TeePee
Leaked or not, SpaceX is a viable company in it's present form, and may already be profitable. Tesla is not.
Time will tell, I hope they succeed as they have raised the profile of EVs, although there is some truth in the saying that “the pioneers get the arrows, the followers get the land”. However the investors seem content at the moment, there are grounds for optimism.
peterb
“the pioneers get the arrows, the followers get the land”.
Or as an article recently put it, Tesla could be the new Blackberry.
nope the atom a4 and a8 are the quickest. power to weight ratio, the atom wins. also this should say. the quickest production car. the funny cars beat this up and down the road.
elites2012
nope the atom a4 and a8 are the quickest. power to weight ratio, the atom wins. also this should say. the quickest production car. the funny cars beat this up and down the road.
All the specs of each Atom put it at around 20% slower than this new roadster. And it's not really about power to weight if the end result is inferior.
Elon states the speed is in excess of 250mph and the current speed record is 277.87 by the Koenigsegg Agera RS so there is not much further it has to go.
So I put a lot of faith in what he says, I bet he wouldn't make bs claims just for funsies.
I have no idea what an atom a4 or a8 is…do you have some ketchup sauce?
Elon tries to invent and realize many interesting project at the same time. Maybe he could do it well…
Jam some Speakers… VOOM VOOM!!!
Tabbykatze
Elon states the speed is in excess of 250mph and the current speed record is 277.87 by the Koenigsegg Agera RS so there is not much further it has to go.
Does it matter, any more, though?
The speed limit here is still 70mph, so when we're all forced to ditch our decent fun-to-drive ICE cars for hyped up electric golf carts it won't make a blind bit of difference… and by the time we can afford them, all cars will probably be autonymous anyway and programmed to keep below certain speeds - So owning a car than can go fast just because won't even be an option even if you wanted to break the limit!
In July, Tesla claimed they would be ramping up production to make 20,000 Model 3s in December.
Actual production in December: 793.
Will they survive 2018?
elites2012
with the rise in electricity. ill stick with a biodiesal dodge ram 1500. their is always some fast food place trying to cut cost of cooking oil disposal.
Wouldn't doubt there will be some good vehicles in the future that are powered by used oils, water, etc. My uncle is one of the people who wouldn't like the EV's and always prefer diesel. I was helping him installing the new suspension lift kit,
backrack headache racks and some led light bars on his Cummins diesel truck when his son arrived with his new Model 3. That's surely a fun vehicle but my uncle's not a fan.
In as much as i like the car and truck, nobody seems to be factoring in how much pollution is used at source per electricity generated. How environmentally cost effective are the batteries going to be in the dim future. How are the used batteries going to be recycled and finally which part of the world are they going to dump all the non recyclable bits. These are some of the questions i really want answered. Any boffins out there, your expertise will be greatly appreciated.
Ttaskmaster
Does it matter, any more, though?
The speed limit here is still 70mph, so when we're all forced to ditch our decent fun-to-drive ICE cars for hyped up electric golf carts it won't make a blind bit of difference… and by the time we can afford them, all cars will probably be autonymous anyway and programmed to keep below certain speeds - So owning a car than can go fast just because won't even be an option even if you wanted to break the limit!
On the plus side, if all cars switch to autonomous driving, it'll be viable to increase speed limits substantially.
vicar
In as much as i like the car and truck, nobody seems to be factoring in how much pollution is used at source per electricity generated. How environmentally cost effective are the batteries going to be in the dim future. How are the used batteries going to be recycled and finally which part of the world are they going to dump all the non recyclable bits. These are some of the questions i really want answered. Any boffins out there, your expertise will be greatly appreciated.
Including generator efficiency and transmission losses, electric cars use about half the energy per 100 km. For a tesla model 3 it takes about 16.7 kWh / 100 km from the battery, and 33.3 kWh of gas / 100 km assuming a CCG generating power with typical transmission losses for the UK and 90% charging efficiency. The corresponding value for a diesel jag (2.0l XE, RWD) is 65.3 kWh / 100 km*. We've been over this every time electric cars come up at hexus,
pollution at source is a red herring - there's no comparison to IC car emissions.
*
fuel/power consumption from the US EPA, since they make the comparison easy
aidanjt
On the plus side, if all cars switch to autonomous driving, it'll be viable to increase speed limits substantially.
Nope.
Not so long as the roads can still be trod and travelled by hikers, ramblers, joggers, cyclists, horses, children crossing, cats, deer, badgers, and anything else.
Motorcycles will be banned, of course, but no-one cares about them…
Ttaskmaster
Motorcycles will be banned, of course, but no-one cares about them…
Perhaps they could be made autonomous as well. Pass me my brown trousers, I'm going for a ride…
DanceswithUnix
Perhaps they could be made autonomous as well. Pass me my brown trousers, I'm going for a ride…
Not even if you put a scanning red light in the front fairing…
You'd need all the gubbins a car has, plus gyrostabilier thingumies and stuff… Where would it fit?
Ttaskmaster
Where would it fit?
I'm sure the modern reply would be “in the cloud” ;)
The computer, radar, lidar and cameras should scale down pretty fast.
Would need a big robot boot to pop out and stomp on the road when the bike stops too.
Ttaskmaster
… Not so long as the roads can still be trod and travelled by hikers, ramblers, joggers, cyclists, horses, children crossing, cats, deer, badgers, and anything else. …
The point of a limit is *not* that you do that speed regardless of surroundings. Autonomous cars already deal with sensing and reacting to other road users. Don't see how being allowed to go faster
when it's safe to do so would change that….
Ttaskmaster
… You'd need all the gubbins a car has, plus gyrostabilier thingumies and stuff… Where would it fit?
There's already a lot of progress being made with autonomous bikes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InTJW1TeCLsAnd in a slightly less stylish and more Scrapheap Challenge take:
Autonomous BMW C1
DanceswithUnix
I'm sure the modern reply would be “in the cloud” ;)
Which is great until you hit the countryside twisties where there's no signal and your bike cacks out mid-corner because it can't get th data….
scaryjim
Don't see how being allowed to go faster when it's safe to do so would change that….
It wouldn't.
But the presence of the above-mentioned would mean it wouldn't be safe to do so anyway, so no point in raising the limits.
scaryjim
There's already a lot of progress being made with autonomous bikes:
I doubt they'll ever be affordable in my lifetime, assuming they aren't safety-legislated off the roads before they make it to market in the first place.
Tesla have announced a New Crossover Vehicle!!!!!
Also biggest quarterly losses so far, but ignore that…
TeePee
Tesla have announced a New Crossover Vehicle!!!!!
Also biggest quarterly losses so far, but ignore that…
How long till the free revenue/preorders open?
Tesla,have the fastest car in existence - its hurtling towards the asteroid belt.
TeePee
Also biggest quarterly losses so far, but ignore that…
I dont suppose that will worry a man who can afford to launch one into space as the payload for a space vehicle he is developing.
TeePee
Tesla have announced a New Crossover Vehicle!!!!!
Crossover…….?
Oh-kaaaaaaaay……. fair enough…. modern company, and all that……… so, err….. What are its preferred non-binary vehicular pronouns, then?
:)
Is this the end or just the beginning of the end for Tesla?
Who would have thought it, a car company that didn't make very many cars turns out to be very vulnerable to any drop in investor confidence
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ <– Kind of an interesting way of viewing how many Teslas are being made.
The main thing is, even on the 3rd downgrade to the forecast production figures, they are still a long way away from hitting those.
I can't believe so many people gave them cash on pre-orders.
It is interesting to see how this is going. Back in January, Tesla was aiming to have a Model 3 production rate of 2500/week by the end of March. Well, they missed that, making 2020 in the last week of March. Actually, that's one hell of a lot better than I expected, and wouldn't be terrible, if that were part of their production ramp up. Except it isn't. Over the entire quarter, they made 9766, which shows just how unsustainable that number is. The newest claim is for 5000/week by the end of Q2, but the real test would be if we see more than 32,500 for the entire quarter.
TeePee
It is interesting to see how this is going. Back in January, Tesla was aiming to have a Model 3 production rate of 2500/week by the end of March. Well, they missed that, making 2020 in the last week of March. Actually, that's one hell of a lot better than I expected, and wouldn't be terrible, if that were part of their production ramp up. Except it isn't. Over the entire quarter, they made 9766, which shows just how unsustainable that number is. The newest claim is for 5000/week by the end of Q2, but the real test would be if we see more than 32,500 for the entire quarter.
It seems fairly well documented that Tesla is still learning how to make cars as well as the established players, but they are learning. On their plus side, they clearly have a product that people want (or at least aspire to).
I still think we are funding another Mars project for Elon though. On a planet without forests we can't expect to find oil; cars will need to be electric and charge off solar panels. How else can you visit the people in the neighbouring underground dwelling (they might need a tunneling machine to dig those).
And the flamethrower keeps the martians away? :p
They made 4350 in the fist 14 days of April, then took a week off. Something like 6000-7000 for the month are reasonable estimates, certainly less than the 10,000 Bloomberg estimate. They have also started talking about new drive lines and piling on hype, which is what they do whenever something bad happens. It may just be the Head of Production ‘taking a break’ to ‘spend time with family’, or another missed target.
Looks like the new price of the model 3 is $78,000. Not quite the $35,000 they were hoping for. But when they are paying $18,000 for every car sold just in interest on their debts, it's a little more reasonable. $78,000 buys a lot of competition…
TeePee
Looks like the new price of the model 3 is $78,000. Not quite the $35,000 they were hoping for.
Specifically on a supposed top-end sports model, as you well know.
directhex
Specifically on a supposed top-end sports model, as you well know.
They haven't sold one under $50,000 yet…
TeePee
They haven't sold one under $50,000 yet…
True.
They have production issues and a preorder backlog.
Where's the business sense in fulfilling the low-margin orders first?
directhex
True.
They have production issues and a preorder backlog.
Where's the business sense in fulfilling the low-margin orders first?
They aren't low margin, they are negative margin, even at the current typical $60,000 OTD price. That's M3 money for Chevy build quality.
Latest update! They now say they are ‘quite likely’ to hit 3000/week by the end of the month. So close…
Profitable by next quarter!
I'll believe that when I see it !
Am i the only person that has an issue with Tesla's support/repair model. I.e. only Tesla or Tesla qualified repair shops can work on a Tesla and if they discover that you/3rd party repaired it then they'll disable features like supercharge and certain updates etc. rendering your car virtually worthless? Until that's outlawed you'll never catch me owning a Tesla, even if I could afford one.
This guy sums it up quite well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLgtYgnd7A
TeePee
Latest update! They now say they are ‘quite likely’ to hit 3000/week by the end of the month. So close…
Profitable by next quarter!
Weren't they promising 5,000 a week by the end of june as recently as last month?
TheAnimus
Weren't they promising 5,000 a week by the end of june as recently as last month?
Why yes. Yes, they were…
And… New stuff announcement!
Well, they made it! And at the older claim of 5000/week! Good for them!
Except, as expected, their total production over the quarter was quite a lot behind, about 28,000 cars, falling well short of predictions. That's an average of 2200/week. Not a gentle ramp up. Given the very variable build quality which has been plaguing Tesla, I still feel sorry for those who end up with a car from that last week's batch!
jimborae
am i the only person that has an issue with tesla's support/repair model. I.e. Only tesla or tesla qualified repair shops can work on a tesla and if they discover that you/3rd party repaired it then they'll disable features like supercharge and certain updates etc. Rendering your car virtually worthless? Until that's outlawed you'll never catch me owning a tesla, even if i could afford one.
This guy sums it up quite well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oklgtygnd7a
wtf??
CAT-THE-FIFTH
wtf??
The link in your quote doesn't work, the link in my original post does. Not sure what's going on there.
Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLgtYgnd7AOr is it a more general “wtf” in respect of Tesla's cowboy behaviour??
jimborae
The link in your quote doesn't work, the link in my original post does. Not sure what's going on there.
Try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLgtYgnd7A
Or is it a more general “wtf” in respect of Tesla's cowboy behaviour??
The last one. I seriously hope other companies making EVs don't try and follow their behaviour!! They are clearly overcharging for simple repairs in an effort to push you to overpriced “approved” dealers,and then using the computerised nature of EVs to try and rip you off by disabling features. So a car under warranty,which had a minor issue,and then when taken into a service place,they then quietly disabled supercharging since it wasn't bought from an approved dealership??
So if you bought a Tesla,sold it to a mate,they won't honour the warranty since it wasn't done via an official dealership,then proceed to disable features and ask $10000 from you as a from of extortion?? Honestly,WTF??
The video about them,not repairing an airbag defect which was part of an official recall is ridiculous,just because the car wasn't bought from a dealership,and then the owner having to complain to a governmental agency who sided with them.
I watched that channels other videos,and the even more WTF at some of the repair estimates and waiting times for repairs,which essentially are forcing you to buy a new car.
CAT-THE-FIFTH
The last one. I seriously hope other companies making EVs don't try and follow their behaviour!! They are clearly overcharging for simple repairs in an effort to push you to overpriced “approved” dealers,and then using the computerised nature of EVs to try and rip you off by disabling features. So a car under warranty,which had a minor issue,and then when taken into a service place,they then quietly disabled supercharging since it wasn't bought from an approved dealership??
So if you bought a Tesla,sold it to a mate,they won't honour the warranty since it wasn't done via an official dealership,then proceed to disable features and ask $10000 from you as a from of extortion?? Honestly,WTF??
The video about them,not repairing an airbag defect which was part of an official recall is ridiculous,just because the car wasn't bought from a dealership,and then the owner having to complain to a governmental agency who sided with them.
I watched that channels other videos,and the even more WTF at some of the repair estimates and waiting times for repairs,which essentially are forcing you to buy a new car.
That's exactly my take on things as well. Seriously what are they playing at! In some states in the US it would appear that their whole repair model is illegal and so they've had to modify it a bit for those states but effectively it still reeks of monopolistic behaviour.
The repair situation regarding costs & repair times is the same in the UK for Tesla. I.e. hugely expensive & massive waiting times I've heard.
Hence why I said earlier that until this changes you wont catch me buying a Tesla. Add to that shocking build quality issues and it just completely changes the ownership/desirability model.
jimborae
The repair situation regarding costs & repair times is the same in the UK for Tesla. I.e. hugely expensive & massive waiting times I've heard.
Someone I know has been waiting over 6 months.
In fact, they've been waiting so long, their loaner tesla broke down, they now have a rented X4.
I thought there was a new law recently either suggested or coming into law about manufacturers having to honour repairs done by third parties if done properly without affecting the warranty? Might have been an EU thing.
Gerrard
I thought there was a new law recently either suggested or coming into law about manufacturers having to honour repairs done by third parties if done properly without affecting the warranty? Might have been an EU thing.
Without being able to quote it, I'm sure you're right …. except perhaps about “recent”. I'd have guessed at more like 15 years-ish.
However …. have repairs done at the frwnchised dealers or “authorised” repairers and it pretty much excludes arguments about whether it was done properly. Have it done at Back Street Joe's Expert Auto Repairs and you risk setting yourself up for the
claim that it wasn't done properly, which you may have to prove to be false.
Personally, my “hassle avoidance” gland inclines me to authorised repairets if warrsnty is a factor.
jimborae
That's exactly my take on things as well. Seriously what are they playing at! In some states in the US it would appear that their whole repair model is illegal and so they've had to modify it a bit for those states but effectively it still reeks of monopolistic behaviour.
The repair situation regarding costs & repair times is the same in the UK for Tesla. I.e. hugely expensive & massive waiting times I've heard.
Hence why I said earlier that until this changes you wont catch me buying a Tesla. Add to that shocking build quality issues and it just completely changes the ownership/desirability model.
They are only doing it to enforce built-in obsolescence just like buying a phone.
Saracen
Without being able to quote it, I'm sure you're right …. except perhaps about “recent”. I'd have guessed at more like 15 years-ish.
However …. have repairs done at the frwnchised dealers or “authorised” repairers and it pretty much excludes arguments about whether it was done properly. Have it done at Back Street Joe's Expert Auto Repairs and you risk setting yourself up for the claim that it wasn't done properly, which you may have to prove to be false.
Personally, my “hassle avoidance” gland inclines me to authorised repairets if warrsnty is a factor.
They were not covering safety recalls on secondhand cars,since they were not resold by authorised dealers,and the owner had to complain to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the US,who backed them.
Plus their way of estimating the cost of repairs was to get someone to send them smartphone pictures,and not actually look at the car,where they basically bumped up the price of a few thousand dollars of repairs to nearly $20000,hence making the car an insurance write-off,most likely to get people to buy a new one.